Planning Commission - April 9, 2025

Planning Commission public hearing. The
city appreciates your interest and
participation in the public hearing
process. The planning commission serves
as an advisory board to the city council
on land use and zoning matters. The
hearing agenda items consist of
development applications that require
public hearings. The planning commission
considers the item and makes a
recommendation for approval or denial to
the city council. The city council will
make the final decision for or against
approval of the
application. The agenda consists of the
roll call, administrative report by
staff, public comment for
non-aggendaized items, approval of
minutes for the previous hearing,
continuences for items that will not be
heard tonight, withdrawals for items
that have been withdrawn from any
further consideration, consent agenda
for items not likely to require
presentation or discussion. All items on
the consent agenda may be voted on
together. Any commissioner may move any
item from the consent agenda to the
regular
agenda. Regular agenda is where each
item includes a presentation and
recommendation by staff. A presentation
by the applicant and public comments.
The applicant will then have an
opportunity to respond to the public
comments. The planning commission will
deliberate on the case and cast their
votes. Non-action items are for
discussion only items. No vote will be
cast by the planning
commission. Citizens wishing to speak on
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hearing. Your comment will be limited to
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One additional minute for each
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A light system is installed on the
podium for timing presentations. The
light will be green for two minutes,
yellow for one, and red when your time
is up. Please conclude your comments
when the red light appears. Thank you
for your interest in time. Now we will
begin the hearing with the roll call.
Chair Scarro here.
Vice Chair Young here. Commissioner
Gonzalez
present. Commissioner Kaminsky here.
Commissioner here. Commissioner Joiner
here. Commissioner Higgs present. All
here. Thank you.
Perfect. First up, uh, public comment.
Mr. Curtis, do we have any public
comment for non-aggendaized items? No,
Mr. Chairman. No public comment for
non-aggendaized items. Perfect.
Administrative report, sir.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the
planning commission. and just wanted to
draw your attention to
um additional public comment regarding
item number two on tonight's agenda. I
think there's three additional comments
both in opposition and support. Just
wanted to bring that to your attention.
Um these were received since the agenda
was originally posted last week.
Um, and then the next item I wanted to
bring your attention to is that we do
not have a meeting planned for the
normal time of April 23rd. Um, so our
next meeting um will be May 14th. We do
have anticipated items for May 14th. So
that will be our next meeting and
coincidentally and sadly that will be
the last day for uh Renee Higgs uh
serving on uh the commission and uh for
Diana Kaminsky as well serving on that
commission. So um we'll appreciate
everything that they've done for us and
it'll be too bad that's our last time
but that will be their last time. And uh
over the next few weeks, the city
council will be um looking at
nominations uh and appointments for the
two vacant positions on planning
commission. So, just wanted to give you
that update. That's all I have, Mr.
Chairman. Thank you. Thank you, Mr.
Curtis. Next, we have the minutes uh for
review and approval. Uh is there any
comments, questions, or motions?
Chair Scar Bro, I'll move uh for
approval of the February 12th, 2025
regular meeting minutes as written. I'll
second.
Perfect. We have a first and a second.
Uh let's take a roll call vote. Chair
Scar Bro, yes. Vice Chair Young, yes.
Commissioner Gonzalez, yes. Commissioner
Kaminsky, yes. Commissioner, yes.
Commissioner Joiner, yes. Commissioner
Higs, yes. Motion passes. Thank you.
Perfect. Thank you. Uh, next on the
agenda is the consent agenda. Uh, we
have a commissioner who would like to
pull item number two. So, we'll pull
that from consent agenda and go to
regular. And then we have a commissioner
who would like a brief presentation on
number three prior to a consent agenda
vote. And then I believe we also have a
commissioner recusing themselves for
item number three as well. So, we're
going to go ahead and have that brief
presentation on three and ask
uh Commissioner Higgs to
uh
break step away from the deis while we
hear the brief presentation for number
310 UP 2024 Orangeedale, Arizona.
Thank you, Chair Scarboro.
Commissioners, I'm Casey Stanky with
Scottsdale Planning Department. This is
case 10 UP 2024
Orangeedale. You see the site location
here at the intersection of Bell Road
and Thompson Peak Parkway in this
shopping
center. And then a little closer up.
It's on the southern one of the two
southern buildings on this site. Uh
outlined in yellow here. They do have a
small patio as
well. And the site is zoned plant
community center
ESL. The action requested for the
commission is a recommendation of
approval for a resolution for a new bar
condition use permit at this
location. Here's some of the the site
data. Uh the this is the former whining
pig site which was uh a technically a
retail establishment though it did have
a series 7 beer and wine license. So
they were previously serving liquor or
alcohol at this location. The proposed
use is a formal bar as we define it
which has a series 6 liquor license. Uh
it is about a 1500 square foot suite.
They do have 170 roughly square foot
patio to the west of that. And because
the shopping center is so large,
although there's an increased
requirement for parking, it's the site
is has ample parking on
it. Here's a look at the site plan for
the whole shopping center. Outlined in
red, if you can see it, at the bottom is
this the suite in
question. And my apologies, I couldn't
get a a floor plan here that had both
these on there. So, there's kind of two
of them. The western one shows more of
the interior space. You can see the back
of house stuff crammed at the top there.
And then the bar is kind of a long
linear uh kind of layout. And then on
the picture to the right focuses on the
patio to the west of that
outside and the city did do its typical
notification within 750 ft of this site.
And the applicants also did their
outreach. We have received one public
comment at the beginning of this process
in opposition. Um but nothing since
then. That's concludes staff's
presentation. Thank you so much.
Commissionerell, since this was your
request to hear a brief presentation, do
you have any comments, questions? Yes,
thank you. Uh does this represent a
change in ownership? Is it no longer the
whining pig but a different u owner?
Chair Scar Bro, Commissioner, that is
correct. It's a it's a new owner. a new
operation. In the um the drawing you had
a outline of liquor in the back. Is that
simply the back of the building as it
now exists that there's going to be a
carveout area for liquor or is that I
don't see how it could extend the the
building back or the patio back? I mean,
there's is there ch any change to the
pad itself? Uh Commissioner Tell,
there's there's no change to the
building footprint. I'm not sure if the
applicants intend to do any sort of
tenant improvement that would modify the
interior space. They might be able to
speak to that. Yeah. I'm just curious if
there's any extension of the building or
of the patio in the back. No, there
there is not. Okay. All right. Thank
you.
Commissionerell, are you good? You you
okay with this? Keep staying on consent
right now? I am. Yes. Thank you.
Perfect. Okay. If there's no other
questions right now, we'll go ahead and
just uh take a roll call vote or I guess
we'll need a motion, I guess, here for
consent.
We're doing an a motion for the consent
agenda for items three and four. Just
three right now. Just three. Okay.
Correct. I'd like to make a motion for
recommendation of approval to city
council for case 10 UP 2024. Further
staff recommended stipulations after
finding that the conditional use permit
criteria have been met and proposed
conditional use permit is consistent and
conforms with the adopted general plan.
Do I have a second? I'll second it.
Thank you so much. We have a first and
second. Roll call vote, please. Chair
Scar Bro, yes. Vice Chair Young, yes.
Commissioner Gonzalez, yes. Commissioner
Kaminsky, yes. Commissioner Hertell,
yes. Commissioner Joiner, yes.
And motion passes. Perfect. Now we can
ask Commissioner Higgs to join us
again. Welcome
back. Okay. Uh staying on consent
agenda, we have one item left. That's
number four. Are there any questions,
comments, or motions?
No. So, we need a motion.
Yes, sir. Okay. I make a motion for
recommendation of approval to city
council for case 14 UP
uh 20112 number three per the staff
recommended stipulations. After finding
that the conditional use permit criteria
have been met and the proposed
conditional use permit is consistent and
conforms with the adopted general plan,
I'll second it. Perfect. We have a first
and a second. Roll call, please. Chair
Scarro, yes. Vice Chair Young, yes.
Commissioner Gonzalez, yes. Commissioner
Kaminsky, yes. Commissioner, yes.
Commissioner Joiner, yes. Commissioner
Higgs, yes. Motion passes.
All right, let's move to regular agenda.
Item number two, 9 UP 2024, poor
decisions, patio and kitchen
cup. Thank you again, Sher Scarbor and
commissioners. Again, Casey Stanky,
Scottsdale Planning. This is case 9 UP
2024. Poor
decisions. And this site is in the Fifth
Avenue district of Oldtown, just north
of Indian School on Craftsman Court. And
you can see outlined in yellow here, the
site sandwiched between Craftsman Court
and the Fifth Avenue parking
garage. And the zoning for this site is
downtown with the downtown overlay.
The request by the applicants is to
recommend an approval or recommendation
to council for approval of resolution
13349 for a bar conditional use permit
at this
location. And here again are some of the
site and project details. So the
existing use here is a restaurant.
Though there's a a long history over the
years and decades of this site, it's
been a number of things. And
incidentally, it has been a bar in the
past. However, that occurred prior to us
requiring conditional use permits for
bars. Around 2020, they became a
restaurant operation and kind of lost
that grandfather's status. And now, as
they try and go back to being a bar,
they have to go through this process to
get the conditional use
permit. Uh there's no kind of
architectural changes or site changes
necessarily proposed with this. It's
just an existing two-story building. Uh
the site is actually two parcels. On the
western part or the northern parcel
rather, you have that two-story
building. First floor is the main
traditional bar interior space. Second
floor is essentially patio and then the
parcel adjacent to it is essentially
entirely outdoor patio space. Um the
total gross floor area, which is kind of
the interior space, is about 2300 square
f feet. And I apologize in the report. I
think I accidentally doubled that to
4,700. But there's not actually that
much um interior space. There is um a
significant patio, the second floor of
the building and the entire southern
parcel at about 5,300 square
ft. Now, the increase in uh the
intensity of the use so to speak does
necessitate additional parking and in
this particular case uh going from a
restaurant to a bar would require 24
additional parking spaces. The
applicants are proposing to do that via
remote parking. uh right across the
street to the west, all 26 spaces would
be essentially on one one site or one
combination of
parcels. Here's a look at the site plan.
You can see kind of the the two parcels
there on the west half of the project
site. That gray that large gray box is
the footprint of the building. And then
on the right half of it, you can see the
white area is pretty much all that open
patio space.
I'll kind of go through the floor plan
quickly. I think the applicant
presentation has a better visual than
mine, but uh if you try and visualize
this, the the top half of this is the
interior bar space. The bottom half of
this image is that first floor patio.
And as I superimpose
uh the second floor on here, you can see
the second floor patio space again with
that southern half being the the first
floor
patio. Again, the city did its typical
public outreach within 750 ft as did the
applicants. The applicants also opted to
do an open house at the beginning of
this project. Staff has received several
public comments, some in support and
some in
opposition. And that concludes the staff
presentation. We also have um heal
affiliates for the applicants as well.
Thank you, Mr. Stinky. Uh are there any
commissioners that have questions for
staff? Okay, Mr. if you'd go first.
Commissioner.
Uh yes, sir. Mr. Stany,
um we got these the commissioners got
these um emails just today. Uh two of
them. One of them speaks to
uh problems in the u in the area. Placed
dozens of calls to police non-emergency
number. uh screenshots of decibel levels
exceeding city ordinance. That's one of
them. Uh the other email talks about
um she was told that there would be no
new liquor licenses granted on Craftsman
Court.
Um let's see. mentions
uh prior increase in in let's see
there's problems with shootings,
arrests, vandalism, property damage, uh
trash, human waste, uh not enough city
resources to patrol the area, uh playing
music so loud that we cannot keep our
doors open. Can you speak to those
issues? Chair Scar Bro, Commissioner,
sure. We can kind of go piece by piece
here. Um, if I'm not 100% sure, but if
memory serves, those pictures might have
been um from 2021 or an earlier time.
There were a series of different
operators in quick succession over the
years here, I think.
[Music]
Um, yeah, it's it's true that there have
been um problematic operators in the
past. I don't know that that has
anything directly to do with um the bar
use permit other than the common sense
assumption that things might get rowdier
with bars and restaurants, but I think
it that was the loyalty lounge
establishment where most of those
complaints came in which was actually a
restaurant, not a bar. But um there's
definitely validity to the his some of
the history at this site. Um I can't
speak to the the noise complaints
necessarily, but um but pardon me, at
least one of the um statements was that
um they had just recently done a sound
check. Uh so that sounds like it's the
um current
operator. Um so not something from the
distant past. Yeah, I would defer to the
applicant on kind of the their how they
describe their current noise output.
They'd be limited and they'd be
stipulated to the ambient sound on the
street just like any other establishment
on that street. Do we have a way of
measuring um the adequacy of resources
for patrolling the area?
Um is it just I didn't get the attention
that I wanted or is it that there is
actually a shortage of of patrol
coverage for that area? Do we have any
way to measure that or to know about
that? Yeah, Commissioner Tell, apologies
for my naivee on this. I from the more
kind of planning, development, land use
aspect. I can't speak to the police
department and kind of where they choose
to allocate their resources or whether
or not they view it as a a problem area
necessitating more, you know, eyes on
that street. I'm not quite sure.
Thank you. Um, one one more thing in
with respect to the the liquor license
element that there would be no new
liquor licenses on this. I honestly am
not quite sure what policy or law or
private contract that would be about
unless it's in a private covenant or
restriction on that area or a real
estate um person told them that there'd
be nothing from the city perspective
that would preclude someone from
pursuing a liquor license or a bar use
entitlement on in this area. Great.
Thank you for adding that.
Perfect. Thank you, Commissioner Tel. Go
ahead, Commissioner Gonzalez.
Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Um, my question is strictly not
whether the application is correct or
not. I I think that's already been
determined a little bit in that how they
brought this forward. My question is is
strictly on parking. The additional
parking that was that has is proposed
it. Um, can you tell me a little bit
more how the uh how it how that kind of
terms and agreement works as far as the
city's
concerned? Sure. Uh, Chair Scarro,
Commissioner Gonzalez. So, with remote
parking, we have we we the the two
entities will sign a term of no less
than five years, an agreement, and if
they want to modify that or they want to
end it, they have to give us, I think,
60 days notice or something to that
effect.
Um, it's really just a mechanism to
allow understanding that there are
restrictions functionally speaking,
pragmatically with parking in downtown.
If you can find a site within 600 ft
radius of a subject site, you can use
that parking if it's not already
earmarked for something else. In this
particular case, we're doing what we
call evening use credits, which is after
the business closes at 5 or 6 and the
spaces are no longer being used for
that. we might as well repurpose them
for functional parking.
Okay. So, am I to interpret that the
additional parking spaces that have that
have been provided, are they on private
land, city land, easement? Where is it
at exactly? Commissioner Gonzalez, um I
didn't get a visual for this. Perhaps
the applicants do, but it's on private
property. The business owner across the
street to the west um has agreed to it.
So, it's all on private property.
And is this agreement when it's is this
a recorded agreement or is it just a
bilateral agreement or how is it
secured? Commissioner Gonzalez, it is a
it's recorded at the county. We do
record the agreement. Okay. Well, I
should say we record an assurance that
they have an agreement. The city isn't
technically a party to the private
agreement itself, but we do record our
assurance that they have an agreement.
Okay. Is that with a another private
vendor then? is where the where the
they're getting the extra parking
spaces. Commissioner Gonzalez, I'll
partially defer to the applicant to get
into the details on that, but um I don't
think it's a private vendor. It's my
understanding and I can be corrected
that they've just spoken and have a
relationship with that owner and he's
supportive of this. So, he's offering
those spots up. Okay. I'll I'll wait for
the applica applicant to make a
presentation then. Thank you.
Thank you, Commissioner Gonzalez.
Commissioner Joiner, thank you. Did I
misunderstand you or did I hear you
correctly? Did you say that these
pictures were not current? They're from
some time ago.
Commissioner Joiner, um I that was my
recollection. I only looked at this
briefly today. It just came in today.
So, I'm I'm not actually 100% sure. I
don't have it in front because I doubt
seriously this bar sells bottles of
cupcake
wine. So, okay. I'll talk to the
applicant when they come up. I just I
couldn't remember if I heard you say
that or not, but thank you.
Perfect. Any other commissioners with
questions for staff right now? Okay.
Thank you, Mr. Stany.
Right. This your water. No bar sells
that.
It's $7.99. I'll remember to lower the
microphone this time. Commissioner
Higgs,
uh, for the record, my name is Lauren
Proper Potter, PO Box 1833, Temppee,
Arizona
85280. I'm obviously here tonight on
behalf of poor decisions and the request
for this conditional use permit here.
Um, Casey did a great job walking
through the overview. I think I'm kind
of known for doing overkill on my
presentations. So, um, because we were
on consent, I I think the application
did a good job setting forth a lot of
the sort of detailed criteria in the
ordinance. I think in the interest of
time this evening, I'm just going to
stay pretty specific here with what I'm
going to address with you all knowing
that please feel free to stop me at any
time. I can dig into any of this a
little more, but um I I know you're all
well aware of what's going on, so I
don't want to kind of harp on any of
that stuff. But here's the location. Um,
Commissioner Gonzalez, you had asked
about where the parking was going to be
located. If you see directly on the left
side of the screen, that's to the west.
Um, there's some angled parking. That's
a city-owned lot. If you look just
directly south of that, so towards the
bottom of your screen, that is the
property owner. They own basically from
the corner there almost all the way to
that city lot, that is where we're going
to be getting our parking spaces from.
So, all 26 remote parking spaces are
going to come from that single property
owner. I know your ordinance allows
people to go out 600 ft. We're getting
everything from this spot. And I want to
revisit this point in a moment when we
talk about some of the stipulations that
we've worked on with staff here. Um I
Casey touched on it, but I think the
elephant in the room here is that
there's a lot of discomfort over what
happened on Craftsman Court in 2021 and
2022 with Loyalty Lounge. And so I think
it's just worth addressing headon. Um
Loyalty Lounge is the only series 12
restaurant operator in this site in the
last 25 years except for my client
Jackson who operates restaurants in
Chandler mostly. He's a restaurant
operator. Um, he opened this business.
It's an older building. The
infrastructure wasn't great. And
unfortunately, when he opened two years
ago, he was forced to close the kitchen
portion for some repairs for an extended
period of time. It's about four months
or so. Why that matters is because right
now we have an issue with the state and
that's the nature of why we're here
today.
um the the business did not meet the
required food and liquor sales split in
order to operate as a restaurant. And
that's why we're here today asking for
the CU to operate with a series 6 liquor
license, but there's really no proposed
change to the operation. So, what you
see today is what will remain and
Jackson has actually recently opened,
he's expanded his hours to include the
lunch hour. Um and that's again, I'll
get to that in a minute. Uh we have some
stipulations that will ensure that this
continues to operate feeling like a
restaurant, offering food sales on the
street without that pressure from the
state department requiring that a
certain percentage be food versus liquor
sales. Um so these are the stipulations
and your staff is great. Um we've we've
talked extensively about how do we
provide the assurances to the neighbors
on the street. I will tell you we have
support from almost every single
property owner on the street and
actually I think I put an exhibit in
here somewhere.
Um maybe I lost it but um almost every
single property owner on the streets in
support. We've spoken with most of the
tenants and some of the other property
owners who just didn't take the time to
write. But no doubt there are a few
people with concerns. Their concerns are
valid. And so what we've been trying to
do is find ways to assure them that
we're going to continue to be a good
neighbor here. This isn't a speculative
conditional use permit where we're
trying to see are you are you actually
going to be a good neighbor? Are you
going to be too loud? Are you going to
operate like something that should be in
the entertainment district or maybe a
problematic bar operator that's causing
some issues that maybe isn't the best
neighbor to some people on the street?
We have two years of data here. We have
no noise complaints, no issues, no calls
for service, acts of violence, nothing
like that. So, we already know what's
going to be happening here. We don't
have to guess what this business is
going to operate like. We're just
talking about a change from a series 12
restaurant liquor license to a series 6
liquor license. And by the way, I can
assure each and every one of you, nobody
would rather be able to operate here
with a series 12 than my client. Those
licenses for a bar are about they're
over $200,000 right now. So, if there
were a way to make it work as a
restaurant, I guarantee you that would
be the preferred outcome here. Um, so
some of these additional stipulations
just to shore up the commitment that my
client's making to the area. Um, he will
offer food service that includes entree,
so not just French fries or chips, um,
until 9:00 p.m. on all business days.
Um, and then he will also be open for
lunch at least 5 days a week. So, that
was one of the things that we wanted to
make sure that this isn't going to just
be a nightclub or something. I know that
that's one of the fears that's been out
there. Uh, we're limiting the hours of
operations. That's voluntary. We're also
not going to be charging a cover. This
stipulation, I think, is probably the
most important stipulation in this
entire staff report. This requires that
the remote parking spaces come
specifically from that property that's
directly to the west. Why this matters?
So, that property owner who is the the
support letter that you recently
received, his family has owned this
property for over 30 years. He's well
aware of the history here. He will
gladly jingle the shell casings from the
shootings in 2021, 2022 that were dug
out of his building in front of you.
He's very aware of what's going on here.
He so strongly supports my client that
he is giving him his parking spaces free
of charge. But guess what? With that
come strings attached, he can revoke his
permission to use his parking spaces at
any time with a pretty short notice to
the city. And this stipulation makes my
client accountable to his most directly
adjacent neighbors to shore up that
commitment to be a good neighbor. And so
I I know that there are some concerns
when you convert from a restaurant to a
bar and you go to that series 6 license.
The conditional use permit process is
the best way to regulate your businesses
downtown because you get teeth for these
businesses that you don't normally have.
Loyalty Lounge operated with a series
12. No teeth. It took way too long to
get them out of that spot. It just took
too long. And I understand why there is
some lingering concern from the
neighborhood about what occurred. It's
it's all perfectly valid and I
understand why. We think that we have
done a good job working with your staff
to make my client accountable to being a
good neighbor. He's committed to that.
We have good relationships with most of
the property owners on the street. even
one of the people who wrote in
opposition. I was at his house until
11:30 on a Saturday night um taking
decibel readings from an adjacent bar
that he has had some concerns with
regarding noise who are grandfathered in
and they don't have a cup. So the city
doesn't have the enforcement mechanism
that would help address concerns like
that. So this is a good way for the city
to have some teeth in enforcement as
well as we have a direct stakeholder
here. or the neighbor across the street
has his own um control over that as
well. So, I'm happy to get into other
stuff, but I think that we have a pretty
narrow set of concerns here. So, I'll
conclude um but I'm happy to answer any
questions you might have or get into any
of this a little bit deeper.
Thank you very much. Do we have any
questions from
commissioners? Commissioner Gonzalez, go
ahead.
Um, I had a question for legal counsel.
Did um did you peruse this uh this uh
application and see that there was no
conflict with the state as far as their
the the the bar designation?
Uh Commissioner Gonzalez. So,
um it's a bit of an interesting issue.
Obviously, uh, liquor licenses, they're
not issued by the city. They're issued
by the state. So, although the city does
make recommendations to the Department
of Liquor Licensing and Control,
ultimately, it's the state's discretion
on whether to issue a license and which
type. Uh, so I haven't, you know, done
an analysis here just because it's
something that the city typically does
not have control over. Uh, it's
typically only relevant to whether or
not the applicant needs to have a
conditional use permit. So, uh,
unfortunately, no. I haven't done a deep
dive to determine whether or not they've
complied with the state's rules. Is
there possibilities that the the city
could be in conflict with the state on
this? I don't believe so. Uh, because
ultimately the state sort of dictates
and the city follows. In this instance,
uh, if the city, excuse me, if the
applicant were to receive a series 12
license, then the cup would not be
required. But here, obviously, if
they've changed that to a series six,
then the city follows suit and says,
"Okay, now you need a conditional use
permit in order to operate a bar here."
Very good. Thank you.
Thank you, Commissioner Gonzalez. Uh,
real quick, uh, Commissioner first, then
Commissioner Kaminsky.
What is the business of the Fantel
properties? Uh, or you know, what
business is operating at 4160 North
Craftsman Court? Commissioner Intel, a
number of different kind of funky
businesses. Um, some of which I've gone
to. They have a teeth whitening place,
which I've totally been to. They also
have, um, an IV um, facility that has
kind of limited hours. And I believe
Joe, who wrote in support, also offices
there as well. And there might be one
other attorney um, who has an office
there as well. Okay. Thank you.
Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner
Kimy.
Yeah, I have a couple questions. One may
have be more for staff. Uh with regard
to the the noise complaints from the
other bar or restaurant in the area, you
there is a noise ordinance regardless of
having a cup that would be enforceable.
Is that right,
Chair Scar Bro? Commissioner Kaminsky,
the city does have a noise ordinance,
but its strength is in protecting um
residential zoning districts, not
mixeduse zoning districts. And so the
city's looking at um doing an update to
the noise ordinance, just hasn't been um
um put together quite yet. Okay. Thank
you. So, what is the nearest residence
from this property? Do we know that?
Yes, I it's um it's on Craftsman's Court
um Commissioner Kaminsky just north of
this site. I remember measuring it. I
think it's about 200 feet 200 um to 300
feet. Um but that residence happens to
be across uh the street from another bar
and that's been a source of contention
over the years. So that if I may, there
are actually two there's another
residential project that's closer than
Steve's Johnson. Steve Johnson's is the
Craftsman which is on the west side and
they actually wrote in support of the
request. Okay. So if there were
residents in the area, they could call
but because this property is zoned mixed
use it would not be adhered to that or
is it based on the proximity to
residential?
So, um, Chair Scarbo and Commissioner
Higgs, certainly they could call the
police um for, um, any sort of nuisance,
including noise and, um, and it would be
up to the police department and the
police officers from a reasonable person
test that they apply toward nuisances of
all types. Um, but with regard to the
noise ordinance specifically, its teeth
is really set up from a bite standpoint
to protect residential districts in
terms of its referencing of decibb
measured from what affecting what. And
it's all about residential districts,
not about um not about mixed use um
zoning districts. Okay. Thank you.
Um the other question I had was about
the use and the operations. Um you said
that there was a kitchen that was closed
so that triggered the t change in the
sales of alcohol. Once the kitchen was
opened again um I noticed on the website
the happy hour is pretty long. It's not
like a standard happy hour. So, was
there any consideration if you didn't
want the series 6 of changing your hours
for happy hour and doing things that
would fall within the series 12 that you
already have to operate with? Yeah,
certainly, Commissioner
Kaminsky, kind of to my point earlier,
it's much cheaper and much easier to
figure out a way to make it work as a
restaurant. Um, that's why Jackson
expanded his hours and opened up for
lunch and was able to kind of revamp the
menu. Unfortunately, I think those
things just kind of happened a little
bit too late to address the issue that
already came up with the state. So,
there wasn't an opportunity to kind of
go back and fix it. Um, but it's it's
also a really challenging location for a
restaurant. I think that's why there
aren't really any other restaurants on
the street. Parking is tough for sure.
Um, you also have, frankly, really great
competition on Marshall, on Fifth
Avenue, and there's only so many
competing interests you can have. And
so, um, Poor Decisions kind of operates
in a specific niche, and they are
operating like a restaurant. They're
just too far into the category of
selling liquor more than the food ratio
that's allowed by the state. Okay. My
only concern is not actually with the
use permit for uh changing to a bar.
It's with the existing use permit for
live entertainment because I know once
bars open hours extended, people drink
more, the music level tends to go up. So
I I do hear the concerns of the one
business that you know had concerns
about that. So, I would hope because
that use permit is not under review
tonight that all of the conditions that
are put on this use permit for it
changing to a bar um that we do have a
good neighbor situation that this music
doesn't get cranked up during the
business hours of the other businesses
in the area. Thanks, Commissioner
Kamincy. Steve Johnson has my cell phone
number. Anyone on the street is welcome
to have it. He's not afraid to text me.
He's done it several times late at
night. We we go back and forth. He's
kind enough to invite me to his house.
So, um, we've, you know, it's promises
made, promises kept. I made a commitment
to Steve that I would come out and hear
him out with concerns. Um, and that
remains. Jackson's a very active
operator. Um, he's on site frequently,
so there's there's no secret about
trying to get a hold of of somebody
there when there's an issue. So, we will
continue to be available.
Thank you, Commissioner Kaminsky. Do we
have any other questions at the moment?
Commissioner,
uh, yeah, if you could just, um,
clarify, I believe the outdoor patio
space was a similar uh, square footage
as the inside. I mean, we saw it pretty
quickly, but can you describe what the
outside patio space is like, how it's
used? Yeah, of course. Um, thanks,
Commissioner Higs. So, there it's two
separate parcels. One parcel is
basically entirely consumed with a
physical building structure. That
building is two stories. It has a pretty
small patio up top that is generally
oriented facing the interior. So, it's
almost kind of like the second parcel is
sort of a courtyard area. Um, and that
also kind of backs up as you go to the
east to the city's garage. So, it's got
some pretty good like natural buffering
in terms of noise. Um, and then the
second parcel, which is the southernmost
parcel, is is just an open space. So,
um, it's a it's about I think both
parcels are about 2,300 square feet. So,
they're super narrow. It's really small.
Um, and there's some seating there.
There is a small stage which has been
there since the um, I think 1980s or
1990s from the original live music um,
permit that's been there and it's, you
know, been do gringos and Oldtown
Gringo. been a number of things over the
years and um to my knowledge there there
haven't been any issues with the way
that the the space is used and I think
it's because it just has really good
natural buffering because of the
configuration of the the it's kind of
sandwiched in between several other
buildings.
Okay. Um Okay, that answers another
question. Thank you. Thanks. Perfect. M
commissioner, do you have another
question? I I don't have a question. I
have a suggestion. It's none of my
business, but I think we've got two very
interested uh neighbors in here. And I
know they've had the opportunity to fill
out a card, but just maybe since they
are interested, do you have any interest
in speaking?
They would need to fill out a card. So,
if they would like to do that, they get
Mr. Mc Williams and make that happen.
And I know they should have turned it in
by now if they're going to, but what the
hey, they're interested. I've got a
couple questions. So, should they have
the opportunity? Perfect. Perfect. Thank
you. Thank you. Uh, Miss Proper Potter,
two questions for you. One is, uh, how
are you defining summer and winter off-
peak season hours? How are you defining
th those two off- peak seasons?
Chair Scarra, that's a great question.
Um, it's it's open. Um, we're we could
define it more. We could put months in
there if it would make the commission
more comfortable to get specific. I
would tend to think that summer off peak
starts um in June and the winter off
peak probably starts in it's like
December to February. So not six months,
you know, it'd be a couple months in the
winter. Um obviously summer feels like
it drags on longer and longer every
year. Um it would probably be like June
through September,
but happy to get more specific. uh with
those months if that's the uh
commission's desire. I just don't want
it to turn into the summers that are off
peak are considered longer and longer
each year and this morphs itself into
what we don't we didn't expect it to be
if that makes sense. Uh the last
question for you is uh should the
parking
um the parking agreement you have be
revoked by your neighbor? What's the
remedy for your client?
Chair Scar Bro, the remedy as I
understand it through the conversations
with staff would be that we would either
need to find a satisfactory solution to
the director and the zoning
administrator um or my client would be
out of compliance with the CU and he
would not be able to operate anymore.
So, it's a pretty strong incentive to
maintain a good relationship with the
neighborhood. Chair Scarbo, members of
the commission, there's another option.
Um, the applicant could always pursue an
inloo parking agreement uh with city
council um and pay for some inloo spaces
that go into uh a fund for either
additional parking or maintenance of uh
public parking downtown.
Thank you so much, Mr. Curtis. Those are
my two questions. We'll just do one more
time. Anybody else have any additional
questions? Great. Thank you, Miss uh
Thank you all very much.
Perfect. Uh, do we have any cards for
speaking? None. Okay, then I'll open it
up for questions, comments, or motions
from the commission.
Don't all start. People are looking
expectantly because they know it's
coming. Um, didn't write anything up
beforehand. I'm winging this. Uh, I look
at it from three perspectives.
amenities, aesthetics, and economics.
Um
economics, it's going to bring in more
tax revenue for the city. It's going to
um support other
businesses in the area. But in terms
of a watering hole, if you will,
um you know, aesthetics, you know, that
perhaps is the uh the issue. I mean,
it's some neighbors are not going to
like it. Um, but they're probably going
to like it more than what they've had in
the past.
Um, it's hard to say, but from the
presentation, it seems like it'll be an
improvement. You know, for some that may
be a positive, for others, it may be
less of a negative.
um you know amenities like I say it it
provides a place um
for customers to come and that's a good
thing. So those are my thoughts. I'll
make a motion.
Go ahead.
I'd like to motion make a motion for
recommendation of approval of city of to
city council for case 14 UP
20112 number three per staff recommended
stipulations. One second. Let I
apologize interrupt you, but it'd be
number two.
You're right. Sorry about that. No
worries. For case do that. 10 UP 2024
per staff recommended stipulations after
finding the conditional use permit
criteria have been met and the proposed
conditional you permit use permit is
consistent and conforms with the adopted
general plan. Second. Okay. So, we have
a first and a second. Point of
clarification. Um, Commissioner or Chair
Scar Bro and Commissioner Joiner, the
case is actually 9 UP 2024. You
mentioned 10. I know they're right next
to each other.
Number three says 10 UP.
Number two. Sorry.
Sorry. Case 9 UP 2024. Do I need to read
the whole thing over again? No, it was
just point clarification. Thank you. I
think we all know. Thank you. Thank you,
Commissioner Joiner. Thank you, Mr.
Curtis. So, we have a first and a
second. Uh, with that, we'll have a roll
call vote. Chair Scar Bro, yes. Vice
Chair Young, yes. Commissioner Gonzalez,
yes. Commissioner Kaminsky, yes.
Commissioner, yes. Commissioner Joiner,
yes. To all three.
Commissioner Higgs, yes. Motion passes.
Thank you. Perfect. Thank you. Uh,
before German, does anybody have
anything else? Yes, commissioner
or chairman,
whatever. I'm making all these mistakes.
I can't believe how many I'm making. Um,
I would like an update from staff on the
uh Oldtown noise ordinance. I believe
this is the fourth time I've asked about
it, and each time I've been told it's in
the works, it's close or whatever. But
when are we going to see it and when is
city council going to see it? Uh,
Commissioner Joiner, I apologize because
we have not agendaized this matter for
discussion. I'm not going to be able to
answer that question at this point. Um,
but if you want to send either myself or
Mr. Curtis an email, we can provide you
with an update. Uh, I also just
anecdotally am not the attorney assigned
to that, so I'm not able to give you an
update right now. Even if I We've
discussed it before, though. I I mean
I've asked this question. This is the
fourth time I've asked a question. Sure.
My understanding is uh it is still being
evaluated. So apologies both in terms of
what we have agendaized and my personal
knowledge. I just I don't have a
substantive update for you.
Who's who who's who has it right now?
Because I've I all I've heard is people
saying that's not my job. That's not my
department. I don't know who's in charge
of this. Who is in charge of it? The
attorney most likely assigned to that
would be Luis Centa because he handles
uh code enforcement issues.
Okay. That's the first time I've heard
that because the last time I asked it, I
believe it was in January. Mr. Curtis
said it was being worked on and we had a
discussion about it. So being told we
can't discuss it is kind of interesting
to me. So, I just meant from an open
meeting law standpoint, we're supposed
to only discuss items that we have. All
I wanted to know is when we were going
to see it, that's all I want to know. I
apologize, Commissioner Jo, but I don't
have that information. We just want to
know when can we agendaize it? Can we
have it agenda for the the May May
hearing, Mr. Cruz? Uh, certainly, Chair
Scarbo. And non- action item, just an
update. Yeah. and Commissioner Joiner.
Um, as before, um, we don't have an
update. There are, it has been worked
on, but with the new election and some
changes in management, there's been some
shifting of workload and priorities. And
so I just want to temp your expectation
that unfortunately you may not be
satisfied again with the answer um
because I don't think it's um ready for
public consumption yet. When it will be
there will be open houses and so on so
forth particularly with the uh
stakeholders that have participated in
uh open houses previously before uh or
during the kickoff of that effort. Um,
so not trying to um not trying to uh I
guess shut you down on the conversation
other than the agenda and the open
meeting laws. I understand that the the
unfortunately the comments uh and the
situation and the status hasn't changed
enough um for it to be fruitful, but we
certainly can um try to gather more
information and put it on the agenda for
more of a conversation to meet the open
meeting law for May.
I was on DRB for five years. This came
up at least twice when I was on DRB and
tonight we had two cases where noise was
part of the conversation. This is an
important agenda item that need and I
respect the ID the open meeting laws. I
just want to make sure that this isn't
being swept under the rug and is not is
being ignored because we have one two
applicants that have both had to address
questions about noise. We've had
neighbors that have been very concerned
about it and it seems that nobody knows
what to do. So ple thank you for putting
it on the agenda
and I'd like to hear in May where we
are. So thank you.
Thank you, Commissioner Joiner. Thank
you, Mr. Curtis. Uh, with that, I think
we'll look for a motion for adjournment.
So moved. Second.
I second. All in favor? I I. Sojourned.