Study Session - 2/6/2024 5:00:00 PM

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good evening everybody sorry for the
delay my fault and I said I'm late but
I'm sorry and they can't start without
me so here I am um I'll call this
Council study session for February 6
2024 to order uh we have two items on
our agenda the first is a presentation
and discussion of the Land Development
code and parking text Amendment and I
see Ashley is that Ashley yes hi Ashley
I see Ashley McDonald here hi Ashley
good evening
thank you mayor and Council I'm happy to
be here tonight to talk to you about our
LDC text Amendment um regarding the
parking code update and refresh uh just
by way of some background um the parking
ordinance was left out of our 20121
refresh um some of the council may
recall in 2021 we did an overhaul of Our
Land Development code modernizing it and
updating it um and we decided at that
time that we wanted to make sure that we
um spent a good amount of time on the
parking section of the code and engaged
a consultant so we reserved that section
for a a future update so in 2022 the
town initiated a contract with Walker
Consultants to start to take a look at
our code um relative to parking and how
we might update it Planning Commission
then updated or then initiated that text
amendment in June of 2023 so staff has
been working on this um text Amendment
for some time um and we're happy to
bring to you tonight some of the
recommendations uh the reason that we
wanted to um engage a consultant in this
effort is because of how important
parking is to the built environment and
the impact that it can have on our
community and um land jues and
development within the town um a lot of
times it's one of the number one things
that we hear from developers that
impacts the feasibility of their
development projects um that then in
turn impacts our property taxes and and
future development um of our vacant
sites uh it impacts the overall built
environment um accessibility and then
our Environmental Quality and so we
wanted to make sure that we took a good
look at this section of the code so as
we moved forward with Walker Consultants
we identified some guiding principles um
on what we wanted to achieve out of um
their examination of our code and areas
for improvement uh we wanted them to
look at how we might update our code to
simplify it and modernize it um in order
to make it easier uh to understand we
also wanted to look at removing parking
barriers to support future growth we
wanted to look at Innovative and and
flexible parking requirements so how
could we adaptable how could we be
adaptable to changing development
patterns within Gilbert um creating new
and effective tools um that would help
us to implement the transportation
master plan and the town General plan
and then look for opportunities to
streamline the review process as it
relates to parking um and applicants who
are seeking perhaps a a reconsideration
of the parking requirements for their
sites so what Walker found was there
were a number of areas of interest for
them to examine that included use ratios
and parking requirements for the
specific uses they also took a look at
design standards for off- street parking
things like parking landscape areas um
you know Drive aisle widths and such
opportunities for administrative relief
from parking standards for sites with
unique conditions and uses was another
item that they took a look at as well as
parking standards for new mode types so
how how does ride share electric
vehicles impact our parking lots and
then parking ordinance reorganization
so when we initiated this item with our
Planning Commission um and started to
have some internal dialogue there were
some um there was some feedback we
received related to some of these items
like the parking ratios and such that
made us take a step back and and we
identified a couple of items that we
wanted to prioritize because we know
that there are things that are hampering
development today relative to parking um
and so those were opportunities for
administrative relief from parking
standards for sites with unique uh
conditions or uses and then we also o
wanted to take a look at parking
ordinance organization as part of our
phase one so the rest is not um part of
this request before um the the council
um but those the other items are ones
that we want to further study and bring
back as part of a future phase update to
our parking code so we're just looking
at those opportunities for
administrative relief and then
organization
today I want to start two by talking
about some of the existing tools that
exist within the parking code we have uh
really three distinct opportunities for
somebody to request um reductions in
parking um one of those is shared
parking so shared parking allows for a
reduction of up to 50% of the required
parking um for uses that generate shared
trips or where um there is off- Peak
usage so one use has most of their um
trips on a on a off peak time for
another use for example uh we also have
a deferred parking option where a
business has a unique parking demand
they can defer installation of 50% of
their parking through an administrative
use permit a deferral is not a permanent
parking reduction though uh so an
applicant does not receive any relief um
in terms of land area they still have to
accommodate or be able to accommodate
the full parking demand um they just
don't have to install it so so there's a
real limitation with that option and
then we have a parking reduction uh for
businesses that have a unique building
design where they're Limited
structurally and then they can defer up
to 25% of their parking um so again
that's a deferral option um and the
example that we use most with that on
how somebody would utilize that if it's
a medical office building for example
and they've got a cat scan machine that
takes up a lot of floor area uh we would
allow them a reduction recognizing that
that space isn't occupied um by the same
amount of of people as say a typical
medical office
building so um understanding what exists
in our Co Cod today I'll now walk
through some of the proposed changes uh
so we are now looking at some parking
reductions that could be used um at
there's different tiers of what that
application process looks like um but
the parking reduction would allow
reductions where a business has a unique
parking demand structural limitation um
or a transportation plan that reduces
the parking demand and so this would
replace the shared parking that I talked
about before um and it breaks it up into
the three different sections so
reductions between 1 to 10% for
non-residential uses would go through an
administrative relief process the 10% is
consistent with how we administer other
administrative relief within our code so
that's a a typical standard for us we
can um provide relief up to 10% we may
require a minor parking study and the
code um also outlines what the what the
various study types are um reductions
above 10% and up to 25 5% for
non-residential uses can be approved
through an administrative use permit
those also require a minor parking study
and then reductions above 25% and up to
50% for non-residential uses and between
1 and 50% for residential uses would
require a conditional use permit um
those will require a major parking study
it's important to note that the um 1 to
50% for residential uses was a
recommended change from our Planning
Commission um when they heard this
earlier in the year
sorry Ashley one to what percent 1 to
50% for residential uses so essentially
any any request for a reduction in
parking for a residential use would be
uh through a conditional use permit
that's a difficult process to go through
if you're only asking for 1% or 2% or
and that is for just residential they
they were concerned with um just
reductions in in that use type in
particular um there was also some
discussion about going up to 50% for
non-residential uses um but one of the
things that um we talked about and
evaluated was for use types that require
very little parking so a storage
facility for example requires eight
parking stalls if you want to reduce it
by a couple that's a pretty high
percentage um and so that's why we see
that up to 50% um just as a as an
additional note thank you sorry to
interrupt I thought you said 50 and I
was like no I couldn't have heard her
right no I did
um and then for shared parking we also
wanted to introduce some language that
recognizes the mixed use zoning
districts that were approved last year
um so the the language in all caps is
what would be added to this section
shared parking reductions up to 10% of
the required parking may be approved by
right in the mixed Ed zoning districts
with sub middle of a minor parking study
and that would be through their design
review
process uh I mentioned that um the code
would also outline what's required of
those parking studies and so for a minor
parking study we would be looking um for
them to provide us information related
to the base parking ratio so what's
what's the required amount of parking
for the site um we would also then want
them to provide us the percentage of
people that um are expected to drive
rather than use an alternate mode of
transportation so that's what that mode
split reduction is um a captive
reduction which is the percentage of
people on site for multiple uses and
then a presence factor is the daily
visitors um at the peak hour so they
would provide us that information to
help us evaluate the merits of their
request uh with a major parking study we
would require all of those things that I
just um described as well as some
parking inventory and occupancy counts
uh they would have to
um conduct counts for three different
sites uh at a minimum of three times on
a week day and three times on a weekend
for for various properties with a mix of
morning and afternoon and then there's
some requirements for how they choose
those comparable properties um as well
just to kind of set you know some
transparency for the applicants so they
know what to expect when they submit um
these things are very typical of what's
submitted for parking studies today but
our code doesn't outline it specifically
um so a lot of times they're um
submitting documents that don't
necessarily have the information that
we're looking for um so this helps to
provide some of that Clarity for our for
our development
Partners um and then the Walker study
also suggested some consolidation of our
existing parking um sections and so what
you'll see when um you have the redline
draft of the of the parking text
Amendment looks like there's a lot of
changes um but what we've done is we
have Consolidated some of the section so
we've corrected some scrier errors and
then we've reorganized so we deleted the
parking reduction section um or any
parking reductions or deferrals from
section
5.33 uh renumbered that section and then
moved it into section
5.34 in order to free up the space in
section 5.34 we Consolidated um that
into section 5.35 so it looks like
there's a lot of text changes but we
Consolidated some sections so that we
could free up space to create a off
street parking deferrals and reduction
section so that it can all be found in
one
place uh Planning Commission did
recommend approval with the change that
noted um relative to the residential
parking reductions um in December we
took this to the chamber public policy
committee and had some discussion there
where they were supportive of the
changes as well um and then this is set
to come before Town Council on February
20th um so tonight I'm here to take any
um questions that you might have or if
you've got any feedback I would love to
hear
that thanks Ashley any questions for
Ashley council member torguson if after
this has occurred they've been granted
relief the different steps of it what if
it proves that they actually needed more
parking is there a step back on
that so that's a that's kind of a a
difficult question to to handle um
because it would depend on what their
study talks about and and if they have a
use permit and that use permit then
limits them to the uses that they have
if say a new user came in that would be
a challenge for them to come to have a
new user come in um if there is no user
change and we've just they're not
providing enough parking I think we
would have to work with the applicant to
find some alternate solution to address
that um but there is not a process to
resend the administrative approval that
I'm aware
of in most cases something's built or
something's using the space and so on
once that space is taken up it's hard to
back that out again and it it does work
if there's a conditional use permit in
place for a maybe a temporary use that
goes away and changes but then you're
kind of stuck other comment oh coun Mur
Kowski hi Ashley I have a few comments
thank you for your
presentation
um I'll start I I was trying to take
notes along the way whenever something
pops in my head so I'll catch everything
for the shared parking aspect um would
you be requiring a shared parking
agreement when a development is noting
that they have additional parking
available in an AB budding or
nearby area yeah there is some existing
language um in the code too that we
didn't cover as part of this because it
it isn't changing but there is a
requirement that they um provide to us
that document okay great
um the next item um you mentioned that
the some of the mixed use land uses may
have a reduction up to 10% by
right
um I've
seen in those uses higher reductions so
what why was 10% selected versus a
higher number such as like 15 uh that's
a great question and I think there was
just a comfort level with with the 10%
because it's consistent with an
administrative relief um they could
always request a higher um production
and it would go through an alternate
process so an administrative use permit
for example um but it it just kind of
matched that administrative relief
option and and so that was that was
where we settled and so that number
could go up but they would have to
demonstrate through a parking study
correct okay thank you
um the mode split
reduction I like this one um however is
it directly linked to on-site amenities
that are provided by the
development that's a that's a good
question I think there's enough latitude
in the description it really just talks
about them providing information related
to the mode split reduction and so I
think their narrative and their their
study that they would submit we would be
looking for for them to explain why they
came to the the conclusion that they did
okay I think it might be beneficial to
add some examples and
to um make sure that there's some direct
linkage with that in terms of for
example if they explain that they're
doing a like a modit reduction because
people are going to bike to their
Community um they need to be providing
bike parking or shower amenities or some
kind of linkage to to what's actually
being provided so I'd probably make that
a little bit tighter um or have some
more examples of
that um and then the last note I had was
the requirements for some of the data
collection you mentioned three times on
a weekday three times on a
weekend that's a lot and that's kind of
expensive to get that much data
collection um through experience I know
this um
and but I think it's also smart to have
some kind of metric um my
recommendation would be two times on a
weekday and one time on a
weekend
um but just think about how
to structure that to also make sure that
it's not becoming an unnecessary burden
on the development and that might depend
on the development right because if it's
a church you really only need to count
maybe Wednesday and Sunday um but if
it's you know like it's based on the use
what like what hours of the day might
like may be important so maybe a little
bit less prescriptive because that seems
a bit much um mayor and council member
do you think it would be appropriate to
perhaps have some language that um
allowed staff to provide Direction on it
based on based on their use and their
their request would that be something
you were comfortable with yes
okay but something that you could
specify is that it would be at least a
weekday and a weekend so at least they
know that there's at least two times um
but yes I think having that leverage
with just staff Direction based on the
use would be thank you that's a great
example of a church because you wouldn't
want them to go out and count on a
Saturday when it's a Sunday right so if
staff could give direction then that
would be much more
appropriate Council vice mayor
Anderson Ashley can you think of any
examples where we would ever reduce
residential by
50% I I
can't I can't either B based on the
comments I get from the community about
our multif family in particular right
now that would be a dis faster in some
of those
projects uh mayor and council member so
when I um one of the things that I will
point out is the the text that was
proposed to Planning Commission didn't
have the non-residential language and
the residential language at all it was
just strictly the reductions between 1
to 10% um is through an admin relief and
so um this was something that came up at
the Planning Commission meeting and so
we can certainly take a look at at
revising that if that's something that
that you're interested in because we uh
at planning commission's recommendation
broke it up into the non-residential and
residential uses and so um happy to take
a take another look at that percentage
if if I have some
direction I think I would like that
okay the only thing that I could think
of was another Valley City that did a
development with no cars
and so it would oh is that what you're
were going to say so that was the only
thing that popped into my mind is if you
don't have a way to reduce the parking
you wouldn't even be able to approve a
project like that and I I don't think we
will see a project like that in Gilbert
considering the size of the town and how
spread out we are and we are very
dependent on our vehicles and we don't
have a core downtown like the city I'm
referring to but yeah definitely
something to look at thank you vice
mayor any other comments questions for
Ashley oh council member tilky knew you
would I knew you thank you mayor um
thanks Ashley and thank you for bringing
this to a study session since this is
kind of a change in in the way we're
doing things so I appreciate the
exterior
information um in regards to council um
vice mayor Anderson's um comment I'm
wondering if we say
anything above
10% would require some type of um
conditional use permit so you could do
that for residential or non-resident or
perhaps but I agree to when you put
numbers in like that it it it appears to
be a
right instead of saying that if you want
to go over a certain percentage you have
to go to the next tier of approval so
not sure exactly what that is but um I
might suggest that thank
you I when you said a right I also
thought of it might be considered all
right to go to 50% reduced and I don't
think that we would ever consider that
in a development in Gilbert so I mean
for us I think one of the biggest
complaints we get is parking right and
it doesn't matter what part of town
you're in or what what project you're at
it's always that there's not enough
parking and it's the one thing that I've
been very conscious to watch at Gilbert
Regional Park for our own properties is
to make sure that we always have room to
park that property and with the cost of
um construction right now and the cost
of parking structures and nobody's going
to want to be building those for a while
so we really need to make sure that we
have parking where it's needed and I
know people say to me all the time that
it's hard to find a parking space
downtown I don't have find a hard to
find a parking space downtown you just
have to walk a little bit further but
the garages the garages have space and
there Street Park paring and I like that
so any anything else for
Ashley yes council member thanks mayor
um I forgot to mention that uh thank you
council member Capri for all your
comments I that's kind of why I let you
go first because I knew that you would
have the expertise and I appreciate all
the feedback that you gave and I agree
with that thank
you thank you Ashley we appreciate your
presentation and all the hard work on
this we have one other item on our
agenda this evening discussion review of
possible changes to the municipal code
chapter 1 Article 2 Division 3 1 2 3
Rules of Order and
procedure thank you mayor council chevel
and I are going to do this do you do you
want us to go down or are we fine
here I'm fine with you there I think we
know you're where you're sitting great
thank
you we've got a presentation coming up
you should have you should have papers
um you can't read it you you've got a
couple handouts yes there's one and
there should be a Redline PDF oh we
didn't that so never mind that's all you
have right there so Council as you're
aware we're coming back we at the
November Retreat we had a discussion
chevel and I had a discussion a
presentation with the council about
changes to um this section in the town
code The Rules of Order and procedure
it's uh chapter 1 Article 2 Division 3
and um we got some direction at The
Retreat and this is us coming back to
the Council and study session to review
the proposed changes um and then get
feedback and then possibly you know
codify it and come back to a council
meeting um after some you know further
comment or changes so we're going to go
through um just kind of section by
section where we're proposing changes
it's not every section um in this
division but most of them um we're
looking at doing and the reasons for
this as we've talked about one is to
address inconsistencies in the code code
there are sections that just are very
inconsistent um it's to conform the code
to some current practices so code says
something but the council historically
has done something different so we're
making some changes for those reasons to
make some process improvements based on
feedback that we've received and then at
the very end and you'll see the last few
slides is to codify some formal rules of
council
procedure and Council rules of decorum
we talked about Robert's rules um the
recommendations to move away from
Robert's Rules and to create our own set
and we'll get that at the end of the
presentation so what I'd like to do is
just go Slide by slide I think there's
20s something slides some have a little
more um ink than others but you could
see the blue is what um what is what's
being changed in this section um so what
this code section originally said is
study sessions shall occur on on an as
needed basis we're making this change
that you see in blue to conform with
other parts of the code that says you
know the manager the mayor or the clerk
on the request of three council members
can request you know an agenda item the
current code doesn't say that the mayor
can call a study session or the manager
just says as needs it doesn't say who
can do it so that's what this language
is um on this
section there's yes council member Chris
thank you um
so uh one of the items that we added is
uh a requirement that once we want to
add an item that we do meet with the
town manager to discuss the scope and
the timing of that because I think that
has been something that's been a little
uncomfortable when people want to bring
things forward but yet they're not sure
what the scope is until we get here on
the DI and so this would allow at least
staff to be prepared to present
something if you want it but also a
better understanding of what we're going
to actually be talking about once we get
here and so um it's just another step
but it allows um us to understand what
it is that we're going to be asked to
talk about so you jumped ahead just a
little so Chris brought the slide up for
agenda items um but yeah that's a great
Point thank you I appreciate that
because we're not sure what the item is
and and it sometimes it if it's
discussed with the town manager or the
town clerk or the town attorney that
maybe it's not even a necessary item to
be added to the agenda so mayor council
member tilki to that point you saw in
that first section it said okay we we
clarified who can call a study session
and it said you've got to do so in
compliance with 1 191b I just brought B
up so we could take a look at that
obviously a is just a couple changes to
make sure because throughout the code
they say Town manager for some reason
this just said manager so we're at add
that in a but B is the new language that
uh council member tilki just talked
about so please review this and see if
it if it satisfies the council if you're
all good with uh this proposed change
because it would be a change to the
current
practice council member bovani thank you
mayor um I don't see any kind of
timeline on
this um at all so if three of us came to
you on a came to um Patrick on a
Wednesday is there a certain amount of
time that has to discuss these things or
you know I'd hate to have a situation
where they just sit on it and we miss a
whole another meeting and we have to go
two more weeks to put something on the
agenda mayor council member Bon bani I
think the primary point is what type of
work needs to be done to prepare
information for the item uh and ensure
we've got proper staff uh time available
um and understand the scope of of what
is needed so that when we do bring it
forward we can have a you can have as
thorough conversation on it as
possible any other questions on this
section if not I'm going to go back then
um there we go we we've done this one we
now look at 18
7 uh 187 is special meetings and it's
very similar to the study sessions
before it said the mayor or the clerk
and so what we're adding is that the
manager can also call a special meeting
that's consistent with agendize items
and consistent now with um study
sessions and obviously subject to that
requirement that we just talked about
before special meetings called Council
should talk to the manager to make sure
you have the the right resources and
everything you need all the information
you need to be able to hold a special
meeting and if there's no questions on
this I'll move on um the next section
meetings to be public I added you see in
the title executive sessions this
section talked about executive sessions
so I just added that in the title to
make clear that this section also
addresses um executive sessions the
first item a it's a recommendation from
chevel and I um just to do a cleanup
that notice of meeting shall be given in
a manner consistent with state law we
have to follow the law so it just makes
it a lot easier um and then B is about
executive sessions in our view it's just
a cleanup but we're adding a section as
well to be consistent with study
sessions and special meetings that an
executive session can be held for any
purpose permitted by state law at the
request of the mayor the town manager
the town attorney or the town clerk upon
the request of three council members so
the old code wasn't clear who could call
a executive session so we want to
clarify that that right is given to the
parties identified
here and consistently that's the big
thing that I'm seeing right here is
consistently that that's the goal every
type of meeting can be called by the
same the same group of people the
exception is an executive session we did
add that the town attorney could call an
executive session the town attorney
under rest of code Provisions can't call
meeting and I think it shouldn't be able
to and and for exec sessions I think
that's a great addition to us it makes
sense yeah okay thank you so we'll move
on here this is a quorum this is one
that we're recommending we didn't really
get into it at the uh retreat
but recall that the uh our code is based
on it's a 1984 code so the language that
struck out here was something that's
been in the code since
1984 I don't think we've ever done this
I don't think Chief soberg wants to go
arrest a member of the council if they
don't show up to a meeting and so the
the recommendation is just to strike it
unless unless we want to keep it in um
we've to my knowledge we've never had an
issue with that and even if we did I
don't think the council would want to do
that but unless anyone's good we'll move
on as well I want I want to see Chuck in
handcuffs I was going to say I was going
to say want to do it or want to see it
done it would be it would be one hell of
a Chase to begin with yeah I I don't
know what was happening in 1984 in
Gilbert but luckily it's we're not there
so that's Chief I don't know that we
have a oh we have a vehicle that might
be able to catch council member bonani
no maybe we shouldn't
say similar here this section disorderly
conduct the recommendation is to strike
out the disorderly conduct section
section a um this is a $20 fine that the
council or the actually the mayor could
impose do you take vbo yeah right so the
recommendation is to remove that um the
expulsion we kept in Council has the
right to do so um that that new section
A that you see where it says but not a
second time for the same cause that's
actually in state law so the state law
under Title 9 allows the council to to
expel a council member during a public
meeting um for a reason really any
reason the council as a majority
determines but state law also says you
can't do it a second time for the same
cause which means you can't just keep
kicking aoun member out because you
don't like them so that's why that
addition is there um again we're
removing the uh the fine component and
unless any council members have an
objection to that we'll just move
on um this is section's obviously
dealing with an agenda um and this is
the section that we just talked about in
B this is is the new process that study
sessions special meetings and executive
sessions would be subject
to any comments or questions about this
one again we covered it a couple minutes
ago
but seeing
none Okay order of business
um the code requires that the chair take
the you know you see you start the
meeting precisely at the appointed hour
that's not always the case a lot of
times have meetings prior to the thought
here is just to remove this because you
don't want a violation of the code if
you don't start at 6:30 on the dot or
5:00 on the dot
so um this is a continuation of this
same section and this is where we're
starting to get into obviously some of
some of the more substantive changes the
one you see in four
is chel and I looked at this and we
think it's just kind of codifying the
way we do things the way the council
does things with the communications from
citizens it's not adding any really new
requirements but it's just clarifying
what the council Authority is to set
time limits uh to require comment cards
and to be able to group together so that
that's the one thing we really haven't
we haven't been allowing people to
combine their time for communications
from citizens have
we um we have it happened at the last
meeting it has happened in the past
asked a couple times and I think um and
some especially at public hearings and I
think public hearings is different than
Communications from citizens but I think
that um thank you this is to try to get
um a control of that before the meeting
so that the public understands if I want
to donate my time this is the process I
need to do it it's very awkward when
somebody stands up and starts yelling
I'm giving my time oh yeah I'm giving my
time and then we have to try have manage
that from the dis so I think that this
would allow them to understand when they
get there it'll be on the website if you
want to donate your time we can combine
those cards I also I don't want to get
ahead of myself um you know I I think
what we could do is um vice mayor when
you read if somebody's combining their
time you could say they're speaking on
behalf of these people it's in the
record that way um and then it's very
clear that people have agreed to that
and I I just think it's very very
awkward for us to try to decide in the
middle of all of that should we let them
combine shouldn't we how much time do
they have you know and just by setting a
precedent I think would be helpful well
and consistency in rules is much better
people know what to expect
yes so no other questions are concerns
with these proposed changes we'll move
on
um the would where's the part that
covers how oh might not be in this part
the part that covers how long
Communications from citizens is supposed
to last because right now in the code it
says 15 minutes that last section it's
kind of been so that's not the
requirement was that we would take
Communications from citizens comments
for up to 15 minutes wasn't it it it
it's there but the red Line's kind of
oversaw so you see that blue it used to
say that where it says such remarks
shall be limited to three minutes unless
the council um and then I guess the last
sentence there you see the 15 yeah it's
crossed out to six because that sentence
has been just kind of morphed into a
different sentence morphed into a
different sentence and removing the 15
minute limit 15 minute limit is gone now
got it Y and and what that does allows
six minutes for if you want to combine
and so it it it's a a definite time and
if we feel comfortable with that we
don't have to try to make those
decisions up here on the fly yeah and
Council obviously retains The Authority
at any time to change even if it's the
three minute initial or the six minute
you could do that depending on the
number of people just puts us in a very
uncomfortable situation to treat people
differently on the Fly and have to give
a nod of the head or something at that
moment
okay next section so you'll see I'm
going to go through this real quick so
you can I guess it's just these two
slides um this is codifying the way the
public hearings items are run um mayor
Peterson has a handout there that that
shows this is the order that you take
testimony um so this is just codifying
that this is actually based on what the
order is in the land development code
it's almost a copy paste job from the
way the public hearings are required to
be run in the Land Development code it's
a good process um our applicants are
familiar with it when they're in front
of the Planning Commission so we think
it's good form to formally codify that
and that's that's all that this
does so everyone's good reading this
I'll move over to the second part it's a
little bit smaller because it's very
specific
on again it's the order of procedure of
how these hearings are
run thank you for changing so that it
specifically says may ask may ask
because sometimes we just don't need a
presentation yes and and the shall is if
you don't need one so there's the
flexibility of the council that's the
reason for that and the shall is the
legal part that we have to do yes
correct and you'll see it at the back
end after the public testimony and again
this follows the LDC process you could
ask the applicant to come back up you
can ask staff to come back up to respond
to public comment or respond to
additional
questions I'm good with
this any questions concerns with this
this is the way that the mayor has been
running the hearings but we just are
codifying it now
okay um item seven here is just we had
we had had a conversation at The Retreat
about rolling the policy section into
the administrative items and there can
just be one administrative item and you
do policy matters that's all that is
that's why Section 8 is struck
out and then section nine is codifying
the way the council can handle future
meetings um having a discussion during
that section at a council meeting to
discuss whether or not you want to
agendize a future topic obviously we've
got the the the cards where you can get
the three signatures you could do that
at any time you could also do that
during uh council meeting on this
section Chris I think you know the one
thing just to remember when if we use
this during future meeting so mayor this
would be new for you because we don't
normally call out few future meeting
agenda so we we'd have to do that but
um you can request to put an item on but
we can't get into a conversation about
the scope which is another reason why
the meeting with the town manager and
finalizing all that would be very
important but this is something we
haven't used in the past but it's
another Avenue for uh council members
instead of getting the three um
signatures um I think the confusing part
of this
is um if I brought up a
topic it's not automatic it will go on
another agenda unless there's some kind
of a consensus that everybody's nodding
their head or maybe there's nose or
whatever so um I think that that's
something we might want to just keep in
mind that just because I bring up a
topic I want to talk about it may not
make it you may still have to go through
the three signatures or something like
that correct and to jump on that um you
can have a discussion about whether or
not you want to agendize and that's in
compliance with open meeting law what
you can't discuss is the subject right
you can't debate the actual Merit of
Whatever item it is that's that's the
distinction under the open meeting law
so if I if I brought up a topic we
couldn't take questions on why I wanted
to bring up that topic correct it would
have to just be I'd like to see this
topic is anybody okay with that or are
you opposed to that that's correct
that's totally appropriate and and some
cities do that as a matter of course
Gilbert Town Council traditionally has
not but it's an opportunity under the
open meing law where you can so and the
way that this is written are we planning
to have our
agendas coincide with this because now
it just says administrative items the
council shall consider administrative
and policy matters not required at a
public hearing are we going to combine
those on our agenda because right now we
have administrative items and policy
items as two separate sections mayor
members of council we were just going to
eliminate policy off the agenda on the
template okay and and just administra
administratively know that policy items
would just fall under um administrative
items going forward and it and under
administrative items it can it can read
just what it says here in the code
wouldn't it uh correct there is some
language already I I don't yeah it
doesn't call similar yeah we would we
would make that change to make it thankk
you just want to make sure we're being
again consistent thank you and then
section 10 there um our current agendas
they they allow for the council we we
notice as part of the public notice on
our current agendas is that the council
can convene into executive session for
any item that's on the agenda uh we
already do that on the agendas but we're
just codifying that because that's it's
a good practice and it does allow the
council the opportunity to get legal
advice during a meeting if you need to
so that's what that that's why that
addition is there so we can go into an
exec session for something that's not
covered under exact session under normal
circumstances correct so for example on
one of the hearing items tonight say a
public hearing item if if there's a
question asked the council could move
into executive session if you're seeking
legal advice we could recess the meeting
have an executive session on that item
answer that question and then come back
down and you can continue the item as
long as we're specific Al looking for
legal advice on that topic not to just
take that topic into exec session to
have a conversation about it correct
it's still got to be one of the 10
allowable reasons to go to EXA that's
what I was getting to sorry just want to
I'm trying to be Crystal Clear yes
that's exactly
right so if there's no other questions
on this section we'll keep moving on um
this is just a minor change
um subsection C says Hey the affirmative
vote of the majority council members um
is where it just takes a majority to
pass an item there are um in subsection
D and I didn't include that there are a
number of items where there's at least
four affirmative votes needed under our
code and then there's other items under
state law that require a higher majority
and that's why that is there it's not
always a majority most of the time it is
sometimes it may need to be a super
majority so we want to clarify that we
do follow the law on that
issue
this is section 19 195 addressing the
council so we talked about the
communications from citizens and this is
just cleaning up some language about um
we called it petition the council we're
changing it to communication from some
citizens because that's what we call it
in the code that's what we call it on
the agenda so this is just some cleanup
to make it read as make it more
consistent so the only thing that I
might change and this is really just
being kind of nitpick is I would say
shall have the right to address the
council during Communications from
citizens or public hearing items just to
keep it in the order of the agenda so
that if somebody's looking this up it
would be in the same order that you
would find it at a meeting and that's
just me kind of being nitpicky but makes
sense we can make that
change um
how yeah it's in there twice so if we
could just fix it in both cases thank
you how would
this be viewed if let's say 100 people
wanted to speak at communications from
citizens do we have to let all hundred
speak at that time we've had what 42 or
something like that um we don't have a
time limit a lot of cities and towns
have time limits we did have a we do
have a time limit of 15 minutes but we
have not been observing that for the
past three years and
so in order to control it more you'd
have to set a time limit and it would be
first come first serve or letting people
combine their
time so I I just went back um on Section
192 into the mayor's point there are
some cities 15 minutes and that's it you
get three minutes so the first five
people speak and nobody else can speak
yeah um yber doesn't do that even though
our code we said that but if you look at
1924 it says and this is there's nothing
new here we kind of modified the
language but about middleway through
such remarks shall be limited to three
minutes unless the council sets a
different time limit so if you do have a
100 people show up the council can
determine you know what three minutes
we've got public business to do this is
a public meeting we got you know people
here for a public hearing you could you
can say two minutes you could say one
minute you have that right at any time
to change to change those time limits
and we have changed it to two minutes we
have changed it to one minute to one
minute for when we had the 40 something
um I'm just wondering whether it would
help to provide even if it's a big
buffer some kind of limit
um because there could be an extreme
case
and although someone might say that that
an extreme case is very unusual or not
going to happen
if we're updating this it seems like um
it'd be nice to have that because when I
read the other piece it
seemed with the SHA condition just very
rigid
um and
so I don't want to go against that
either if we write it that
way so can we build in any kind of
reasonableness
are you're looking at for the number of
speakers or number time time like it
like the meeting may be able to be
recessed um till the next day even um
which the council has the right to do at
any time as
well problem is is
that if you're going to recess a meeting
because Communications from citizens
gets excessive you're not actually
getting the business of the Town Done
Right which is the reason for the
meeting in the first place and so we've
seen I've been sitting on this Council
since 2015 and we would maybe have one
member of the public come every six
months unless it was the cat guy um to
speak during Communications from
citizens for about three minutes and we
had education Law act that would come a
couple of times a year we Patrick's even
laughing right um we never
saw what we've seen since
2020 we people would come to speak on
specific topics during public hearings
so public hearing would go longer on a
specific topic but we would not see the
communications from citizens it has been
weaponized to be
used and promote hate and vitri and so
if we wanted to limit the time it should
be the length my opinion would be the
length of the time that we allow
Communications from citizens if you
wanted to go because we're at 15 minutes
now which is just not long enough if you
wanted to say an hour at the most
because we have to get the business of
the Town done that's what we're here for
it's a business
meeting yeah I
think about like 75 minutes would
probably be the max
you know even if you said we had 100
people here even when we had 42 people
here and if we gave them two minutes a
piece that's 84
minutes that's a long time when count
all the Transitions and all the
transitions in between so it's always
more than the time that that they're
given because of the Transitions and it
took a lot longer at the psdf because we
had to wait for people to walk right
down to the front council member
torguson there's also the option if it
continues past a certain point in time
to put it at the end of the
meeting many cities and towns have
communications from citizens at the end
of their meeting already they just
that's where they place it and um I
think that if we started at the
beginning and then said okay we're going
to continue this to the end it would be
harder than saying we're just going to
do Communications at the end I think if
we made it a decision one way or the
other but I think people would get
really upset if we started and said Okay
hold now we're going to recess you while
we do our business business meeting and
you have to sit here and then put it to
the end then the rest of the people have
to wait I think that would be difficult
my opinion yes council
member I think the other item for
consideration is that we we've changed
our policy of um not allowing people to
speak on consent agenda items so now
they can speak on anything on the agenda
except for public hearing which has to
be done during that time frame
so I don't disagree with anything that's
been said I'm just concerned that
um well know that if we tell people
we're putting it at the end then they
didn't get a chance to speak on the
consent agenda items and I I think it
would be very difficult to split those
out I guess you could but that's a whole
another process but um that that that's
my one concern um here in Gilbert people
expect the opportunity to come and talk
about whatever we're we're going to
discuss um not that I I like your idea
I'm just trying to figure out how we
would manage it um I like the time limit
and but I think that that would relate
to how many cards we have right so if we
if we decide that we have a certain time
limit that means the vice mayor would
have to count those cards and and notify
us us that we have now reached um the
limit if we give everybody 3 minutes and
maybe that's what we do we have a
specific time
limit regarding three minutes per
person if we're going to go over that I
think that's when the the vice mayor or
the mayor could say um in order to keep
within this time limit we would need to
do two minutes each in order that
everybody can be heard so that might be
an option
and um M Mesa does 15 minutes at at
total mag we do 15 minutes total so if
there and and we don't we hadn't changed
I haven't seen it mag that we've changed
the time limit so it's been three
minutes and so five people get to speak
and we're done um that's what ours has
been but we have not been observing that
council member torus what if you
scheduled let's call it 30 scheduled 30
minutes or 15 or 45 whatever ever you
picked said this is scheduled for this
time any comments Beyond this limit will
be taken at the end of the meeting I
think then we run into what council
member tilky just said that if people
are here to talk on something that's on
consent if we didn't get their card in
the right order somehow or didn't pick
up that's what they wanted to talk about
then they wouldn't get to speak till the
end when they wanted to speak to us
before we actually made that vote so
that's just one thought council member
banani I'm uncomfortable with any time
limit at all to be very honest with you
as far
as you know 30 minutes or an hour or
whatever I mean we're here to listen to
the people and if someone wants to spend
20 people want to spend you know three
minutes
just attacking me I'm okay with that
because we need to give them the right
to speak so you know I've been a couple
meetings as a spectator that went on to
2:00 in the morning morning 1:00 in the
morning to me that's okay because we're
we're we really are here to listen if we
want to limit to one minute or two
minute or something like that to make it
more manageable I'm I'm okay with that
but I I have a I have a concern about
this is the time when we're done and you
can't speak anymore just just see
parents of it alone bothers
me I don't disagree with that but there
have been instances where we've been in
meetings until after midnight because of
those and I think that our decision
making abilities after a certain time of
day it dwindles and there are very
important Town business items that we
need to be at our best at so we can make
those
decisions yeah I agree and we are I hear
what you're saying I understand and I
agree with you that we are here to
listen to the public
but we are here to get the business of
the Town done that's the objective of
this meeting is to get the the business
of the Town done and if this is
inhibiting us from getting the business
of the Town done then it becomes an
issue and it and it has it has been an
issue for us we've sat through those
meetings till one o'clock in the morning
we went went into an exec session and I
said I'm not sitting down in here we
stood up for the whole exec session
before we came back out again and it w
we were exhausted and you're not
thinking right and you're you're sitting
here getting blasted by people because
they choose hate instead of
Communication in a one-way discussion in
a
one-way lecture that we can't even
respond to there's so many better ways
and I would love to see maybe a slide
that says when we put the slides up at
the beginning of the meeting for
communications from citizens there are
other ways to communicate with your
council members email council members
gilber da.gov
instead of this and I know people are
purposely choosing this and that's the
problem that we're dealing
with it's it's been
difficult mayor and councel one thing to
consider as you as you talk about this
and debate this
is this meeting I and I agree it is it's
a public meeting to do public business
and there are as you know besides the
town business on the consent the public
hearing items there are there are there
residents there are developers or
Property Owners whose property rights
you know are asking for changes asking
the council to make legislative
decisions and for them you know they're
here for a very important reason and
until the council gets to the public
hearing items they're going to be here
waiting and waiting so something to
consider as well and that's a great
point because that night that we were
here till after one o'clock or pstf till
one o'clock ww160 waited till after
midnight because of everything else that
we had to get through and we had a lot
of residents there including teenagers
high school kids waiting to get through
that topic vice mayor maybe at the the
beginning of the meeting when the vice
mayor actually has the cards you can go
through those and estimate the amount of
time and know what that's going to take
and announce to the rest of the council
we've got this many cards which should
represent this amount of time when we're
getting up on that time I can announce
we're there what do you want to do and
we've tried we tried that I can't
remember if it was vice mayor yentes and
we said okay we're going to take take
comments till this point and it just
didn't work the got rambunctious more
rambunctious yeah and I remember her
trying to handle that I'm just thinking
there's some way it to estimate how much
time is represented by the cards that I
have because none of the rest of you
know what I have here what topics they
are yeah and that's what I was saying
that if we know a certain time limit
that if we're going to get to 75 minutes
I don't two hours whatever it is
that you know that based on three
minutes each so you'll you'll have the
number but the decision point should be
when we reach this should we go to two
minutes in order to facilitate this
quicker if you have something that's in
writing it allows that to happen without
the political pressure of people booing
or or whatever it is in the moment it's
very hard to make that decision and um
so to me it's easier to have something
like that that d Ates how we're going to
do this and and quite frankly two
minutes is a long time I mean two
minutes is a long time and so um three
minutes is even longer you know so um I
I am comfortable coming up with how many
however long two hours is too long I
think
um so if we would have done two minutes
each we could have gotten all of that
done and you know and the thing is that
when we have large groups it's very
repetitive MH we want to hear everybody
but we're hearing the same thing over
and over again and so I don't want to I
don't want to give away somebody's
ability
to to um present their information to us
and and all of that I want to limit what
they can say but the people who are here
for public hearing are paying attorneys
to sit here and so it's even more costly
for those residents and other people who
are wanting to to be heard so um I would
just like whatever we decide to be easy
for us to make the decision instead of
it being very emotional in the midst of
people yelling at us at the same time
agreed and um maybe we could
say well first of all on this slide
that's up on the screen that last
sentence I think may need to read the
mayor or vice mayor May limit repetitive
comments because the vice mayor handles
the communications from citizens so I
would add that correction and I don't
want to forget that um but maybe if we
say and we can come up with this formula
if you will for lack of a better term
but if the vice mayor has 30 slips then
the vice mayor says I have 30 slips
we're going to cut it down to two
minutes a person because 30 minutes
times two 30 slips times two people is
already 60 Minutes Plus transition time
so you're going up to your 75 minutes
and it and it adds up and and and
council member tilk is correct there
attorney sitting here getting paid by
the hour council member bani well I mean
we could
also see the number of cards we have and
make a decision whether to do it first
or or
last that way everyone still gets heard
attorneys and everyone get out of here
kids get out of here if they need to and
then people still get heard at the end
of the meeting I know it interferes with
them wanting to talk before we vote on
something I get that
um but again I just I just hate to say
this is it no one's allowed to talk
anymore and and the the consent items
are kind of few and far between at this
point because we've just really offered
this opportunity Council M Buckley um I
I kind of agree with Chuck a little bit
I I have a little bit of a
problem
limiting people that want to talk I kind
of feel like maybe the best solution is
let them talk at the end and then you
know like the meeting will be over at a
certain time but at least they all have
that opportunity to to
speak so thank you so if we what if we
had another slip that was for consent
items since this is something new and
anybody that wanted to speak on
something that was a consent item we
could hear those first and then do
communication from citizens at the end
of the meeting if we have a large group
would that work mayor members of council
we could absolutely have a third card if
that's the direction tonight or when
when we any thoughts on
that do we want to call it out
separately as consent or do we just want
to put a line on your slip that talks
about well you already have a line that
talks about but I'm thinking a different
color because it would make it easier on
the vice mayor so that whoever's in this
seat knows that there's something
different about that card to pull them
out separately and then if you have a
ton you know how to treat them yes um I
would recommend a third card with a
different color just to make that
distinction to us and the residents
would be my recommendation okay did I
just solve that problem part of it I
think I think he was vice mayor I I tend
to agree with the council member Tikki
the simpler we can make it the better
it's going to be it could be as simple
as the vice mayor receiving the cards
counting the cards saying if we're going
to do three minutes on this it's going
to be x amount of time and I can
announce that before we even go and say
do you want to limit the time anymore to
two minutes or whatever if I if I know
that we have a lot of
cards I guess the difference I would add
to that is you want to ask the council
if they want to do or do you want to
just know that if you have so many cards
so many slips that you automatically
take it down to two minutes because we
can write that up as a process as to how
we handle the meetings I like the idea
of polling the council make sure they're
okay to do that I would just say that
being in that position it's terrible
it's difficult because the room's
already charged ready to speak and it's
not going to be a comfortable
conversation to
have it's better for it to fall on the
responsibility of the vice mayor and if
you want a
prescriptive process formula for for it
that's probably what I would suggest and
the other thing is if we have it written
out then it's on the website and people
know before they get here that if we
have I'm just going to use your example
of 30 cards that you will be given two
minutes each if we have less then you
can have your three minutes and so what
I want to do is I want to make sure that
not only do we understand what's going
to happen the public understands before
they get here that um if there's a
certain amount we will reduce the the
time to two minutes and they understand
that now they can give their time to
other people and they get their six
minutes if they want and that may may
help some of it but um I just I just
want to be very transparent and very
clear what we're going to do what
happens and sitting in the vice mayor's
position I think I know Young's done it
Scott it it's very hard to manage it on
the Fly and who is going to stand up
here with a whole room full of people
yelling at you and say oh yeah we're
going to cut the time now you know we're
not and so I would rather have it be
very clear up front what we're going to
do I don't know that we want to be
pulled and have to acknowledge yes that
we're cutting the time at the moment
either I don't that's a very difficult
position to be in also I I agree with
council member tilki that it needs we
need to set the expectation and we can't
set the expectation if we're doing by
the by the seat of our pants up here
right on the Fly we have to set the
expectation of this is what we know if
it's 30 whatever the numberers we come
up with we can we don't have to do that
at the moment I suppose but if we come
up and say 30 cards takes us to two
minutes 40 cards takes us to one minute
because you still have transition times
or 40 plus cards takes us to one minute
something like that then at least we
have a formula in place for the
expectations and and and C M til is
correct that we can put it on the
website and then the public knows
exactly what to expect and that's
important yes Council M B I'm okay with
that as long as we're not cutting off
and saying you can't talk anymore
otherwise it's like Southwest Airlines
if you're last you're in the middle seat
you know what I
mean thank you and I was just going to
make that um comment to make sure
because I know council member Buckley
was concerned that we were going to cut
somebody off we're not going to not take
comment just going to reduce the time a
little bit to manage that and um so
again what we're looking at is a
recommendation it's a study session
we're not making final decisions um
Chris will be able and chevel will be
able to update this we'll see that
language before we actually vote so
that'll give you more time to think
about it um are we needing to pick a
number I I think even with 30 cards
you're talk if you go to two minutes a
piece you're still talking an hour of so
if you said like 25 cards is it it's a
nice you know manageable number you go
to two minutes something like that and
and you know I guess I'd say for the
record but um very seldom do we have
that many cards yeah we you know I think
you know on a normal basis lately we may
have 10 15 or something and then every
once in a while an issue will come up so
this isn't going to be something we will
have to address every time it just
allows us to be prepared when we we have
a huge crowd
exactly do you have enough to work with
can we just say 30 for now for you to
put that in there so we're not going to
add a time limit we're just going to say
30 requests to speak 30 comment cards I
would suggest to drop it down to 25 okay
to two minutes and then if there's over
35 to one
minute because you're because I'm I'm
just adding the time and the transition
between each speaker because and we know
people go over no matter what we do
people go over over so when you start to
add that do the math I got to do the
math and I hate I hate math but we have
to go from that perspective keeping it
manageable well I guess 25 time 3
minutes 75 minutes so it might even be
20 and then at 25 you would drop down to
two minutes so 25 time two it's still 50
minutes but 24 means that you're staying
at 3 minutes right so you have to factor
in what number below what yeah thank you
see that's you're the engineer she is
she likes math I don't like math thank
you so I think Young you were saying
20 yes uh 20 that means if we have 19
people they all get three minutes that's
about an hour 75 minutes then if we get
over that 20 20 to 30 20 to
29 they get two minutes again that that
Max yeah time is about an hour 75
minutes I think that would give a couple
of good
thresholds what may throw some of that
off as when you get a card that says I'm
combining with so and so I get six
minutes well I think that we would have
to apply the combination where you can
only double the time
allocated that would need to be changed
there too instead of six minutes they
would have to okay yeah so yes thank you
thank you for that because then that
would change based on what the formula
was being used at the time so okay thank
you next sorry thank you thank thank you
for the feedback we'll Mo on discuss yes
absolutely this is the only time for
people in the audience this is the only
time that the seven of us get to speak
is at study sessions and Council
meetings so if we're going to talk about
these things this is the time we have to
do it by
law so this is uh this the code section
we have on disruption of the meeting and
the penalty um as you can see we're
proposing some changes um right now it
says if a person is disrupts the meeting
and they're ejected um they can be fine
$50 and imprisoned until they pay the
fine obviously this is a hold over from
the 1984 code I'm not aware of it ever
being utilized and I don't see why we
have it in here would have the
need okay we'll move on um so these are
the last two sections 197 and then 198
um the rules of Corum this was called
the original section as you can see was
called conduct of meetings we're
morphing this into the rules of decorum
and so you see a lot of strikeout here
we'll get on the next slide to what's
being added but do not um where you see
and be that Robert's Rules is being
struck we had that conversation and that
discussion at that retreat in November
um we utilize Robert's Rules across the
town for public meetings it's uh
unwieldy and not designed for for small
public bodies like this so we had looked
at we had talked about rosenberg's rules
and the ultimate recommendation is to
make our own because rosenbergs doesn't
quite align with our town code so we'll
get into that later but that why that's
that's being struck now we'll get into
that reconsideration as well is added
back in at the at the latter end can I
make a comment on this slide yes I I
think for the fact of um how we run our
meetings with the mayor and the vice
mayor Running part of it I think it
probably should say the mayor or vice
mayor shall preserve order in deor
because at pstf the vice mayor called a
recess and so I think that
we should add that in
there okay any questions on this
section if not we'll move on so these
this section here this slide is the
second part of 197 there's not a third
so the this is part of the conversation
we had again back in November this would
formally codify y the council rules of
decorum for public meetings it's what
we've uh I think the council has
always these are the unwritten rules
that you've always had there have been
rules that you know we have outside
there's a sign that says this but this
is formally codifying and making it
outside of the the council practice and
formally putting it into the code so
these are the the rules that you've kind
of followed but want to have a
discussion of you want to keep these in
place you want to change these you want
to strike any of them whatever the
council wants to do on this
section the the problem I have with
these is we say it every single time
but we don't do anything about it we
have personal tax at every single
meeting and nobody says a word and there
are rules of decorum
so what kind of an example are we
setting it hit me two weeks ago when we
were sitting here and maybe it was four
weeks ago at this point and there were
teenagers sitting in the front row and
they had to sit and
listen to the adults be so disrespectful
and hateful
and it's not
acceptable and right now we have a
community that's using hate to combat
violence and it's not acceptable and we
sit and we watch it and we listen to it
every single meeting and we have these
rules but we're not doing anything with
them
I think that on the personal attacks
we're probably going to have to delete
that because again it's very difficult
because of First Amendment rights and so
might as well take that one out I mean
it you would hope that people would um
would do that just naturally but um
political speeches I think were all
right with because we have a I believe
it's in the code somewhere that you
cannot use Town resources and this is a
town resource during election so I think
that that's um should not be used um the
Applause that we've we've done that um
and and I think part of the goal is once
we get this done that we can finish that
video so that people can understand what
to expect when they come to council and
so we can better um explain you know why
we do that
um the the AIDS we've had these
conversations and I think they've been
in place I don't really see anything uh
on the other ones that is
um
wrong
um you know when people decide
to create um a lot of noise or you know
support for one view over the other it
is um it intimidates other people other
people who are here with maybe even
different topics but they are afraid to
get up that they may be booed or they're
going to or you know it it's awkward too
when they're clapping and clapping and
you get up there nobody does anything
that you know silence is is intimidating
as well and so I think that sometimes
people
misunderstand why we don't want that
Applause going on it's because every we
want to make make sure everybody's First
Amendment rights are upheld and that
they feel they're in a safe environment
and and that doesn't always happen when
when people are clapping and so I don't
have a problem keeping that in there but
as the mayor mentioned it's very hard to
manage from the dis you can ask you can
ask but you know that's where the recess
comes into play and I think it's
something we haven't used enough but you
know perhaps we need to
if um if we can't if the people in the
audience cannot hear their name called
to be the next speaker or we cannot hear
the speaker talking to us that's a
disruption and and that's not um well it
it's disrespectful to the other people
who want to speak you know it's not even
disrespectful to us as much as it is to
those people and so
um I don't think we can codify how we're
going to address that I I wish we could
but I don't think we can but um it's a
hard thing to be the vice mayor and do
that because normally it does come
through uh Communications from citizens
and for those of us who have tried to
uphold that it's very difficult and so
um using that
recess option I think is a good way to
try to get control back and allow the
people who were here um waiting and just
because they didn't get picked first you
know they've had to sit through and feel
intimidated council member
torison in our I believe it was our last
meeting and I know a subcommittee
meeting we had my patience for some of
the some where it got
personal uh I had actually at one point
said I found it just completely and
wholly unfair but when it's personal yes
people have Free Speech but
it's I would think that that at some
point we're we're able to say hey can
you dial it back a little bit because
it's you're making it personal you're
not making it about an issue you're
making it a personal issue I mean are
are we not allowed to dial that in
because some of it just gets it's over
the top so mayor council member torus
into that point um couple couple things
to to be aware of and and as a reminder
one is the council absolutely has the
authority under the law to maintain the
decorum of the public meeting right we
talked about this just a bit earlier
this is a public meeting to do public
business um and that's the priority for
the council because you have real legal
issues that are being determined and
decided people's legal rights are you
know being decided by the council and
that's the purpose of the meeting and
because of that under the law public
meetings are considered limited public
forums
so a unlimited public for is say a
sidewalk where anyone has a right to go
out there and express their First
Amendment right and they can say and do
what they want as long as it's not
overly profane or anything like that
right and even then you still have
rights but in a limited public for like
a town council meeting like a meeting of
the state legislature or a meeting of
the state house or a County Board of
Supervisors meeting it's the purpose of
the meeting is to do the public public
business so why people do have First
Amendment rights those rights are
limited under the law because it's a
limited public form so to your point
council member torus and that is correct
you do have a right to to impose
reasonable restrictions so long as their
Viewpoint neutral you cannot pick and
choose which speech you like you know I
like that political Viewpoint I'll allow
that but I don't like that I won't allow
that that's not permissible but you do
have the right to impose reasonable
restrictions and that right is for all
seven of
us that's correct anybody can say
something during someone speaking out
towards any one of us here on the dis
yes mayor mayor to your point right our
code talks about the chair of the
meeting or the mayor or the vice mayor
but any council member at any time can
could step in and say
Hey you know point of order or they
could call for a recess and then
obviously it would take the majority of
the council to to do so but that
obligation and that right is on all
seven of you at any time um if you feel
like for whatever reason the chair of
the meeting isn't you know stopping
something that should stop that should
you know that shouldn't be permissible
then a council member can step in and
say mayor point of owner and then have
that discussion and then there can be a
motion and the council can make a
decision council member bonon yeah with
that said I think I just answered my own
question our mics are live whatever we
turn them on right we don't have to okay
good yes what what was your question oh
what that any one of us can jump in and
you know defend our honor shall we say
or someone else's without having to wait
to be spoken to yeah and I think the
problem has become
that due to the hate and vitrio that
nobody wants to step
up because they figure they'll be more
hate and more vital if they do and so
when one person has the Target on them
they nobody wants to step up and say
anything so I say leave it in but I say
that somebody's got to start putting on
their big girl panties and stepping up
to the plate well I don't really good
big girl panties but I I'll wear them
for you if necessary
but visually you don't need for anybody
that walked into the room they're like
what in the heck is going on but for
instance at a subcommittee meeting I did
stop and I said this is just totally
unfair you're you're going too far with
this and the speaker recanted what he
said apologized and said he just let
himself get carried away and it changed
the tone of that meeting and I think
that's important for any one of us to be
able to because one or two digs you can
go through even if you kind of even
agreed or something at a certain point
it is just too much it's not fair it's
it's allowing somebody too much too many
freedoms with your person and I think
that any one of us should be allowed to
step in and like you said defend someone
else's honor at a certain point it it it
it is
fair um mayor I I agree with that I just
want you to do a little more research on
that because I know when the state law
changed we were told that we could not
say anything until the very end and so I
know I've called on people at the end if
they wanted to respond so let's just
clarify to make sure we got it right we
can stop a speaker though correct yeah
yeah so there that's that's the
difference the the state law says when
when you you're responding to criticism
or directing staff after public comment
you have to wait till the very end the
last citizen sits down and then you can
do that you cannot do that in between
but you do have the right to stop
someone and say hey that's inappropriate
or that violates our rules of decorum
and the council can do that any time and
and and on these six items I would
recommend that if you're all willing to
say yes we want to abide by these six
and you're willing to enforce it then we
can go with the six but if there's one
that you're not willing to interrupt a
meeting uh to enforce then better to
strike it because what you don't want is
the situation we've been in we have code
Provisions that aren't being enforced
right so that's what this discussion is
for and that's why I brought this up
because we have this in here that
nobody's
enforcing yeah I didn't I didn't take it
as I'm going to I'm going to address
someone who's saying things about me I
took it as if they were saying something
about the mayor or vice mayor or anyone
else that was unfair that we could jump
in but definitely not to the actual
person if they're saying something about
you and I think there's a difference of
stopping them and say saying you've
stepped over a line of our rules of
decorum and not answering or commenting
on what they said is that okay all right
I'm good with this slide anybody else so
for number six we're going to keep in
okay just want to be clear we're all
stepping up to the plate okay sounds
great so we're on our last section
there's actually a number of adopting
formally adopting a new set of rules of
procedure right we Robert's Rules and
adopting our own rules of procedure
first language here just talks about
what these rules of procedures are
obviously the priority of um
interpretation of the rules is we follow
state law that that trumps everything
and then our code
and then we'll follow the rules of
procedure that we'll get into you have
had the last few months chevel and I had
created this this a laminated card these
is these are the rules of procedure
like the ones from Robert's rules that
are used most often for this public body
you've got in front of you right now a
shortened version of that which is where
we're going to get into these are the
exact rules of procedure that we're
recommending there's no other rule that
you would have to worry about or look
into We believe We we sat down we've
gone through uh clerk's office and
myself council member TK's taking a look
at this as well we we think these are
the rules that any public body that
whether it's the Gilbert Town Council
Planning Commission or any other public
body you know commission or board task
force in the town they can all have a
handout they all know what's going on
easy to utilize um this form and you can
understand and look hey for this type of
motion is a second needed yes can you
amend this yes or no what's the vote
needed is a majority you'll see on this
handout it's easier than getting into
the words we we'll go through it quickly
but um some of these requires a three4
majority some is just a chair decision
like we talked about a point of order um
that's about halfway through it's an
objection a council member if a council
member has an objection to a procedure a
rule or personal front then you just say
hey I
object and that does not need to be
seconded and then the chair can decide
what to do um a point of privilege is to
address the meeting you can just say
point of privilege say there's a noise
going on or it's really cold in the
meeting then you say point of privilege
and the chair can decide yes let's
figure out what that noise is so don't
teach council member tilky that one
please oh got it yes so I'll go through
these but what you have your handout
this is the summary and this is what
it's all saying
so the idea is that these are the types
of motions that you see in this handout
that the Town Council is going to
formally adopt we'd move away from
Robert's Rules again decided against
rosenberg's rules because there were
enough
inconsistencies that we would have had
to adopt rosenberg's rules and then
amend it which would be kind of
unworkable what we want to do is make it
easy for every every member of the
public the Town Council every public
board and commission to know what the
rules of procedures are and as you can
see what we've gotten here is these are
the rules of procedure that you have but
at the end of the day what you need is a
motion and a second and as long as
that's plainly understood we built in
this language that emotion can pass we
don't want it to be so confining that
someone can use this as a tool against
the business being done and the key is
right the public knows what the public
body is doing the clerk understands so
the clerk can record and make a
permanent record of what the actions
are um and so we'll just get into these
real quickly motions generally as you
can see on the hand out we've uh We've
created five different types of motions
and we'll go through these you have your
primary motions those are your main
motions you have item specific motions
procedural motions a closing motion and
then miscellaneous motions and so we'll
go in into this part is here so primary
motions are the type of motion that you
would use to adopt an agenda item and
you'd basically say I move that um and
so you get in here we call it a main
motion or primary motion that's the
that's the most typical type of motion
that a council member member of the
public body is going to make um this
amending a motion is not something that
was in the code it's in Robert's Rules
and it's very confusing if you look at
Robert's Rules there there have been
times the council doesn't amend motions
pending motions that often but there
have been times where we've had
multiple amendments going on and if you
approve an amendment you refer back
where we've you know chevel and I have
had you know paper and Pen to try to
figure out what motion is on the floor
our recommendation is say yes you can
amend a motion but you can only am amend
a motion one time rather than multiple
amendments so council member Tikki moves
to approve something council member
torgenson can move to and it gets
seconded then council member torguson
can amend that motion but it can't be
amended again the vote Council has to
vote on the amendment and then they can
go back to the main motion we believe
that makes it a lot easier and cleaner
than multiple amendments going on where
Council has no idea what they're really
voting
on so any concerns with that or
questions no thank you for simplifying
amendments I don't think we've done any
really crazy
ones it it's one or two it's been once
or twice a few years ago it kind of got
really long on I remember some from
several years ago correct
um we'll move into these item specific
motions um people talk about
continuances and tabling um what we are
proposing here that uh a continuance is
where you continue to a date certain and
then a table means that hey we're going
to push off discussion but you don't
identify a date you know that can come
back at some future date um but not to a
date certain so that's what these item
specific motions are there's also a
motion to end debate say the council's
having a lively and long debate at some
point a council member can say enough
right I moved end debate if you get a
second and a vote then debate's done and
that forces the council to vote um so
those are the items specific motions
obviously that means when you're
debating an item an active item any
questions on
that the next section are procedural Mo
motions um there's four of them you can
see it on your thing the first two were
um talking about suspending the rules
you and that's in our current code in
section 194 that's not changed it's
always been there you can suspend the
rules that are in this section at any
time with a three quter
majority um and then we talked about the
point of privilege um if that's where
you want to address a meeting concern
you can say point of privilege and then
the chair makes that decision uh the the
final two procedural motions are uh the
point of order it's you're really
objecting to a procedure or personal
front you can just say point of order
and then the chair decides and then you
can overrule a a decision of the chair
um or it's an appeal you if the chair or
the mayor makes a decision you can
overrule that the council can so there
would be a motion to overrule a second
and then the council can do
so that's based on what's happening in
the meeting correct not okay yeah that's
based on what's
a ruling the mayor made or the chair of
whoever the chair is in the meeting the
mayor made um whether it's a council
meeting or Planning Commission meeting
right these same rules would apply to
them um this is one that I do want
council's discussion um Roberts rules
always says you need to adjourn you need
to have a motion to adjourn that's not
been our practice and so that's a
conversation I wanted the council to
know is we have not just the mayor
adjourned the meeting the chairs have
adjourned the meeting I don't know if
all our public bodies have done that
this would require a motion to adjourn
but if the council doesn't want to do
that we'll just strike it and not
include it and just continue the
practice where the chair has the right
to adjourn if or when I I don't think
it's necessary to do a motion does
anyone think it's necessary to do a
motion to adjourn I mean I think we hold
the meeting until we know the last
syllable is out and then
adjourn we know when to adjourn we're
not done
yet so we'll remove that then I yeah I
don't think it's I don't think it's
necessary and and I'm thinking to like
Planning Commission meetings and things
I think they just adjourn so what we can
do is just change that to say hey it
doesn't take a it doesn't take a vote it
doesn't take a majority the chair of the
meeting can
adjourn mayor members of the council
just a a quick thought um I'm not saying
this would happen but what if the chair
wanted to Ender the meeting and the rest
of the body did not want to end the
meeting they wanted to continue
discussion on an item or then they
debate it can they do a debatable or
amendable or no because at least if once
the meeting's adjourned it's adjourned
and I you know it's
done which is which is a great point
from the town manager does the the town
manager makes great points yeah we we
haven't been in that situation but it's
possible but what that would mean is
there's a you would have to have a
motion to adjourn a second and a vote
and then a meeting adjourns and and
understand that you know whatever we
build into the code is going to apply
not just to the council but to all our
public bodies quite honestly it's
something easy for me to do and it's
something that I already do when we
leave exec sessions I always have to
call for a motion and a second and a
vote before we leave exec sessions so we
would have to do a motion and a second
and a vote do we do a vote too or just
emotion emotion in a second and then we
because I'm thinking we have these boxes
now that we vote on so is it another
thing that the clerk's office has to key
up mayor members of council that would
be up to you if you want to do a Voice
vote for that since it's at the end of
the meeting that would make it easy yeah
um but happy to do either one so I would
say then put it leave it in with a
motion in a second and either vote by
voice or electronic because that way you
leave it open for either way like we had
someplace else in this a document yes
and where we have it right now I
actually spoke a second's not required
the way we' wrapped it just a motion I
think to make it there would be a motion
the mayor the chair would say I move to
adjourn Voice vote and then it could be
done and then at that point if a council
member doesn't want though they can
object because they still want to
continue to talk about something so
instead of me saying um I journ the
meeting I'll say I move to adjourn and
somebody and um and everyone vote please
vote Y and it's i y or n that's correct
okay any concerns with
that okay we're on to the uh last slide
here last slide yes these are the
miscell we call them the miscellaneous
motions
so as we talked about the town code has
always allowed a
reconsideration um and the way the town
code is written and it it continues this
way is that if you voted for an
item um you
can move to reconsider that item at the
same meet meeting
or prior to the next regularly scheduled
council meeting so you can get that item
back on the agenda for reconsideration
so the council would take another vote
that's the old rule proposed to be the
current rule there are some cities that
don't allow amendments once a meeting's
done then you or reconsideration once
it's done it's done the item's dead and
you can't be brought back um we have
we've always allowed it to be brought
back and if the council wants to do so
we'll just keep this language or if you
want to limit it um the one downside of
allowing Council to bring it back to the
next council meeting if you are uh say
you're a property owner and you ask for
a rezone and it gets
approved and this is the practice I know
with zoning attorneys when they do
business in Gilbert they know that's not
final until after the next council
meeting because they know it could be
reconsidered whether it's a meeting in
two weeks or if the next regular
schedule meeting is a month they wait a
month before they close on the property
or do anything so just a topic for the
council to consider
any thoughts on that I like it at the
same meeting because you know I I hit
the wrong button one time and and I was
like what do I do you know and that just
happens and if I would have thought that
I had an
opportunity at the meeting to say oops
I'd like that reconsidered and maybe
because after the vote we couldn't talk
about it to the next meeting I'm
assuming after after that time I think
we did reset and we redid a vote because
I think s several of us said oh my gosh
I hit the wrong button um which is not
normal but it was when our systems we
were new back here in town hall um I'm
thinking back to I I remember one
reconsideration for a
project years ago and it was 30 days
before we could bring it back
I think the same meeting's probably fine
and I don't know any other thoughts same
meeting I would
think since it's the prevailing
side I part of me wants to say that they
can bring it to the next meeting because
if you voted for something and you
discovered something that was very
negative about it and would have changed
your vote had you had that information
you I feel kind of safe having that
there although it's probably never been
used I just want to know how much of a
problem has it been for people whether
it's rezoning or the purchase of a
property or something that have
we is allowing that extra meeting been
been an overdue burden upon those
receiving that positive
vote uh mayor council member torgus and
I don't know it's a huge burden I've
I've heard from zoning attorneys where
they just know they build that extra
time in typically as you know if a if a
property owner is going to reone maybe
from you know one classification to a
commercial the the buyer the property
won't close until the rezoning happens
because they wait for the council to
make that decision whether or not so
they don't close the day after the
council meeting they'll close the day
after the next regularly scheduled
council meeting to make sure there
wasn't
reconsideration so it will push a deal
back a couple of weeks or a month but
they they know that going in when they
start the process it has been used in
Gilbert one case I brought a project
back I was on the prevailing side and I
brought a project back and it was at 30
days higgle and
Baseline Jordan did Jordan brought a
case oh no that was a
appeal I don't know that Jordan brought
back a reconsideration he Jordan brought
an
appeal they so I think I
think they've built it into their
process and I think that um sometimes
things come up like you said sometimes
things come up that you didn't know at
the time so to be safe probably the next
meeting I I would prefer to keep it as
it is just because there to air on the
side of caution in this it's part of the
process instant gratification
is not as desirable as the right outcome
so I'd like to air on the side of
caution and keep it in
there that okay yeah we're doing that
now that's the way we've been doing it
it's the way we've been doing it this is
this is not changing any any of the
current Cod have we been doing the next
meeting or 30 days I'm sorry I can't
remember it's been the next meeting the
next meeting and sometimes it's 30 days
it just depend 30 days right depending
right so and this is the last slide you
can see just a reminder move to
Executive session we always talked about
that and then the recess the meeting the
council has a right at any time any
council member can move to recess the
meeting which would be a temporary pause
of the meeting right it's not ending the
meeting is just recessing for however
amount of time the council determines
and that's it that's those are all the
changes that would be the new rules
perfect thank you that was a lot thank
you for any we're running late so um
thank you for getting through all of
that it definitely needed a longer
discussion than what we we had at our
Retreat to bring back to a study session
so since we're still under our old rules
and haven't moved into the new rules I'm
just going to adjourn this study session
and we're going to take about a f minute
break folks and we'll be
back