Study Session - 4/2/2024 4:30:00 PM

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good evening
everyone um welcome to the Gilbert Town
Council study session for April 2nd 2024
I'll call this meeting to order we have
two items on our agenda this evening
excuse me I have asked that item two be
presented first the dis discussion on
the office of digital government the um
our friends from mag have been alerted
so that they know not to come until a
little bit later and um they also know
that they may have to wait or we may be
finished and we will take a little break
until they're ready for their
presentation so I will go ahead and ask
Patrick I believe for his presentation
thanks Patrick okay thank you mayor
members of the council um mayor is there
preference I can sit here and present
the information or I can go down to the
podium I'm fine with you sitting there
it's study session so I think that's
fine for study session Patrick okay
thank you very good we'll go ahead and
bring up the
slides
okay so I'll start with uh back to the
very beginning in 2011 um to set the
stage where things were and then take
you through the evolution of the
department and where it is today and a
little bit of a a look forward into
where things are heading in the very
near future uh but back in
2011 was a period of um substantial
change for uh cities and towns and how
they communicated with and engaged with
residents in the old forms of
communication print media mailers flyers
advertisements I had really given way
and and gone by the wayside to the new
world of social media and the various
platforms that were much faster much
cheaper much quicker and much more
effective in engaging with residents and
there's been a lot there's been an
evolution in those platforms uh new new
platforms new technologies come and and
rise and then fall out of favor and so
there's the constant evaluation of the
platform the demographics on the
platform to make sure we're as targeted
as we can be but it really had um it was
an entirely new space and the town had
very little Presence at all we had a
website and we had a Facebook account
and we had a Twitter account and they
weren't being actively managed um and so
in some ways it was kind of a blank
slate for us um to go forward from there
in addition to the the world of social
media um there was a recognition of data
and data sets and data storytelling as
being a big big component and one that
would continue to grow with Community
engagement and and communicating uh and
and providing information to our
community um through these modern
formats and channels so from there after
establishing department and this is the
mission statement and uh you should have
a copy of this we can send it to all of
you I wasn't going to read the entire
mission statement but the mission
statement for the
department and then the department um
supports the townwide communications for
all 17 departments including our major
departments Parks and Recreation police
fire Economic Development and Public
Works some departments because of their
size and the amount of information um
that is handled have dedicated staff
members solely to them such as police
and fire and Parks and Recreation others
share uh resources across uh the
organization the population we're
serving and this continues to change uh
and we continue to evaluate this as well
but we're about 288,000 people in
growing about $580,000 our median fa
single family home sales price and that
continues to go up roughly half of our
resents have a bachelor's degree or
higher our Ian household income second
highest in the region only to Paradise
Valley at
105.7 th000 and still a relatively young
population at
35.3 another thing that benefits our
approach to engagement and communication
is 96.3% of our households um have a
broadband internet subscription which is
a very high statistic and one that's
very beneficial to us and our population
in having access to all the benefits
that that provides them and about
onethird of our population is actually
under the age of 13 which again is a
very um young population or or a a large
and young population and there are
platforms on social media channels that
um attract the or or more prevalently
used by the younger generation as well
which is important for us to understand
as we target Communications towards
various
groups and so our goal has always been
from the very beginning to meet the
residents where they are
online newspapers are still here
magazines and different forums are still
here it's not that those channels no
longer exist they do but they're not the
predominant Source people go to it's a
it's a much more scattered offering of
where they're going to get information
whether it be Facebook whether it be a
newspaper in online format whether it be
Instagram it's a wide variety of of
where things are located but the
majority of that's now on all online and
so we need to meet them where they are
we will not be effective and so looking
at our department in comparison to other
departments in the valley the column uh
in dark the black is the things that we
do as well as other cities very similar
things in nature the things that are in
orange uh the bars in Orange are things
that our department does that the other
cities do not do um which is is pretty
substantial in all of these key aspects
to communication and engagement with our
residents which is why um they are
housed within uh the Gilbert digital
department so what sets Gilbert's uh
office of digital government apart from
our peers is our level of Engagement and
looking at some of the numbers total
number of followers across all our
platforms Instagram Facebook X 400,000
followers in fiscal year 23 we had 37
million social media
Impressions take that by monthly it's
about 3.4 million uh social media
Impressions monthly and then engagements
almost 200,000 um monthly engagements
across all our platforms which you'll
see in a second against some of our peer
agencies is quite substantial so our
Benchmark cities that we look um to
Benchmark ourselves against you see we
are over
150,000 engagements um and across the
bottom you'll ALS CC population next to
us uh next closest Irvine California
just over 100,000 then Reno Nevada at
100,000 Mesa a little bit below that
Chandler just under 50,000 Austin Texas
which has over a million residents and
is generally um viewed as as a pretty
techsavvy um forward-facing city um is
well under probably it looks like there
are around 25,000 engagements and then
Avendale Arizona local
right around 25,000 engagements as well
so when it comes to the effectiveness of
the work they do you can see that um
they part they far outpace our peer
communities that we Benchmark ourselves
against in digital engagement video
views fiscal year 23 we had 5.2 million
video views website visits we had 15
million 311 requests we had over
21,000 uh requests through we1 311 not
only has that been a platform that helps
us
streamline um the efficiency of things
that are reported and getting them fixed
like street lights out potholes that
need to be filled uh kids going fast uh
down a road on a on a regular basis that
data we collect on that also helps us
analyze um how we can allocate resources
and so if we see that uh we've got
increased calls for potholes or
increased calls for lights that are out
we can also o equate that to how many
lights can an average crew replace on a
daily basis take that out on an annual
basis and use that as another gauge of
when it may be time to consider adding
another position based on real data
we've got on the number of of times
we're um handling those kind of service
calls and then the newsletter subscriber
has has been one of our um best or or
one of our our high performing areas we
have over 40 ,000 subscribers and we've
got a
52% average open rate uh industry
average is right at 29 uh percent so
we're doing very well um in the number
of subscribers as well as um the people
will actually open it when they receive
that email in their inbox so looking at
our department um amongst the region in
comparison to our peers and Gilberts on
the far left and then it goes all the
way over starting at the top is the
number of full-time employees
then the total budget and then for other
cities and agencies they have additional
Personnel within different areas and
there's additional cost tied to that and
then again across the bottom we've got
the population to get comparison of the
size of the community they're serving so
in Gilbert we have 13 full-time
employees and the total budget for 2324
was just over $1.8
million Chandler which is a community
that's very similar to Gilbert in size
and and makeup has 17 full-time
employees in that department plus an
additional 10 employees that are doing
the same kind of work in other
departments that Gilbert's team does
giving him roughly 27 employees in this
space and if you take the additional
cost the the base cost from their
Department as well as the additional
cost you're right at about $5 million
for similar services in
Chandler Scottdale and and you can go
across the line Scottdale is about uh 24
employees a total of just under or just
over 4 uh $4 million Mesa about 33
employees about $3.8 million Tempe 15
employees a cost of about $2 million
Phoenix roughly 39 employees a cost of
just about just over $6 million and then
Glendale about 145 employees at a cost
of about $2.5 million and again you can
see the population totals that run along
the bottom for comparative
purposes and then Through The Years um
they've been recognized for a lot of the
great work they do through social media
engagement through their video
production efforts um they have been
recognized locally nationally and even
internationally um for some of the great
work they've done I think virtually
every city within this region has come
to visit Gilbert and learn more about
what we do and how we do it many of them
have created Chief digital officers
positions within their communities and
modeled their departments after ours and
we have had countless cities nationally
reach out um as well as make on-site
visits to learn more about what we're
doing and just within the last year we
had Georgetown University abalene Texas
and Franklin Tennessee all reach out to
us inquire um and learn more about what
we're doing and how we're doing it to
take back some best practices to their
organizations so with that that's a high
level overview of the department and
happy to answer any questions you may
have thanks Patrick any questions or
coms ments for Patrick at this time I I
had a a huge problem trying to find the
mission statement can you bring back
that mission statement sure I looked for
hours trying to find
it right
here okay it started in 2011 what was
its original name it was digital
government right from the very beginning
um I believe the town when I got here
was just the Communications
Department
the
uh how when I'm looking at this so it
works with each Town department is that
how it became engaged in in so many
different things that have been divisive
like when I hear things about people's
social media being followed and turned
over to HR and things like that is that
how they're engaged with other
departments no and there was allegations
of monitoring of social media accounts
and um along with some other things and
and uh as many of you were not here but
at the time I brought in an outside firm
to do a full review of all those matters
and investigation and they found no bait
uh no uh basis for any of those uh
allegations or those thoughts and
completely exonerated the town and the
department of any allegations of of
monitoring of social media accounts but
there were things that were turned over
from those conversations to HR weren't
there so I can't discuss any personel
issues per se um
anytime uh something violates our rules
whatever that may be and in whatever
format if it's a violation that happens
over social media and someone reports
that or someone brings that to the
attention of the individuals that
service social media accounts then their
responsibility is to turn it over to HR
and whatever director for whatever
Department that is so they can follow up
as appropriate pursuant to our person
rules so you're saying it's it wasn't an
activism per se it was a reaction
completely that's correct that either
they were tagged in posts or people uh
brought it to the town's
attention right so regardless of who was
speaking whether it was uh somebody from
uh Gilbert digital and somebody from
somebody's wife let's say that was
wholly as a reaction and not a not an
action upon their part I can't I can't
respond to any specific incidents I
don't recall the one you're mentioning
um but again their job through uh
engagement with our resident if someone
tags Us in an account their job is to go
see why we've been tagged do they have a
question about something do do they have
a a service concern um so that or do
they um need information on something
that may be happening and their job is
get that to them or be responsive to
them so again if something came through
that uh appeared on its face to be
Personnel related in nature their
responsibility would then be to provide
that to HR and to the
director right and then with engaging
each department I know that they were at
some point engaged with uh economic
development that person was replaced
later with a marketing person is that
correct yeah so when we um kind of
brought this uh all
together ecomic development had a
position that um did a lot that there
was overlap with the type of work being
done in digital government so that
position uh was brought in as well after
a while we realized that really there
wasn't a good alignment there because a
lot of the work and the nature of the
work that position was doing was
traveling to to trade shows um Business
Development um generation contact lead
generation and that which was not a
typical role uh for um the Engage The
the digital government team and those
Communications and marketing
professionals and so the decision was
made to separate that back out and uh
just leave it in Economic Development
and when did each department get an
embedded person do you know it grew
through the years as the organization
grew and the community grew and the
needs grew it didn't happen all at once
um but as the the sheer demand and
volume of requests for information
materials that had to be put out out
grew we added positions as necessary
through the years and those positions
were embedded in let's say police or
fire correct cuz to me fire is probably
the most trusted brand in the world and
we're replac their voice with someone
else's yeah you know we didn't look at
it as replacing a voice and when you
mentioned brand and I think that's
important because the town as the whole
has a brand and when the residents look
at us they look at one government
serving them in many different ways
police protection fire protection Parks
and Recreation programs and services
water treatment and and Wastewater and
solid waste and
so as we approached this just like any
company that is very careful to maintain
the appearance of their brand and have a
coordinated approach to Brand management
it was the same mindset that that drove
us we wanted to ensure while fire has a
service line and a brand that is is
unique and different from police it's
all part of the Gilbert brand and we
want to make sure we have consistent
messaging and and branding so our
residents aren't left confused as to um
who's serving them or or any disconnect
that may occur or appear to occur
between departments I'd suggest there's
a disconnect in the representation I I
would think that the divisiveness that
I've seen from some people in
departments from the public is because
there's only one voice and it's uh it
reflects in things like feeling that
they're watched feeling that they can't
speak uh seeing only a perspective one
perspective projected through one lens I
mean is
that when you replace let's say the most
trusted Brand's mouthpiece with one
that's homogenized into 10 other
mouthpieces is that truly the best way
to do it well I I wouldn't say so fire
for the example you're using um has a
dedicated full-time employee within fire
and uh that individual works very
closely with the chief and the Personnel
in fire uh to develop that
messaging when you think about uh the
coordination of efforts we just want to
make sure if the message coming out of
fire was part of a larger issue going on
in the community let's say the the
protests that are occurring um or did
occur um from July through November of
the last presidential cycle um fire was
a big part of that as was belied as was
Public Works we had multiple different
divisions involved in that effort and
while fire was providing specific
Services um they were part of the larger
effort on the town as a whole and so
that embedded position still coordinates
and and the fire chief still signs off
on and approves anything before it
actually goes out in whatever Channel or
or form whether it's a quote going to a
newspaper reporter or whether it's a
post going on a social media channel
that individual within that department
is still heavily involved in the final
decisions on what
happens how does that relate
to let's say the mayor trying to make a
statement publicly over the last four
months and her not having access to
social media in that respect our social
media not hers
ours um I I think I would defer to the
mayor um we certainly try to support the
mayor in every way we can and and the
mayor does have direct access to her
channels personally her personal one
yes I'll I have direct access to the
Gilbert a May Instagram and Twitter
accounts I don't have direct access to
any of the accounts that are run by the
Gilbert digital team sorry I still call
them Gilbert digital that's their
original name you asked a few minutes
ago um so if I did a a post which I did
um they went out on the Gilbert a mayor
ch
channels period did you feel you got
enough message out or was there
resistance in getting your message out
where you feel it should have been I
didn't but I don't really I don't think
that that's pertinent to this
conversation tonight I think the things
that you're really looking for is what
the department does overall and not
specific issues of how we can maybe
improve that well I think it's it's
showing whether what parts of it are
working and what parts aren't working
and I think they learned my personal
feeling is you were failed
I that you didn't fail you were
failed I think you agree with me I think
I don't think that that was the office
of digital government okay that's how
I'll answer
that okay fair enough the I I I I don't
think it was on that office that that
happened yeah I thought there was
resistance to you making a public
statement not just from that not just
from that office from what other offices
may I ask not pertinent to this
conversation okay interesting
okay the
um you know I I I look at this and and
when there's smoke there's fire it's
almost always there and I'm not uh I see
things that people don't want to speak
about uh I'm curious as to how so since
it's involved in so many different
departments and then on the the this the
org chart they're above assistant Town
managers technically I mean it's it's
showed above the assistant Town managers
on myor chart that was handed to me yeah
they they are not above it just means
they're direct reporting relationship to
me they're not up above assistant Town
managers
so when they're involved in having that
voice that that one voice going out is
that the voice that goes and says our
hiring practices what makes us
attractive to other towns or other uh
businesses that are trying to locate
across the country how does that work so
their job is to work with the
departments on whatever their needs are
and and do that in the best manner
possible recently just last weekend with
the LPGA ATT tournament and they worked
with the tourism uh division within the
office of Economic Development to create
a commercial for the town that went out
uh that was very well done and and so um
along those lines that's what they do
for each department and whatever their
needs may be yeah no I actually sent you
an email on that cuz I thought it was
very well produced yeah you know and I
forget the name of the gentleman that
produced it but Oscar Oscar did a great
job on that you know I was watching at a
cigar bar and all of a sudden I see a
commercial for our town and it was a
very good commercial
um CU I keep seeing these things that
stick out and it's it's it sounds so
good that you have one voice voice but I
see voices that aren't said and it it
goes into those things like the uh
Municipal Quality Index like I know
there was a push for that where did that
did that come from De from Gilbert
digital yeah so let me let me say um I
would I would characterize it as a
coordinated voice not one voice but a
coordinated voice because again there
are times when there are many multiple
departments involved in an effort or an
undertaking but in different ways and we
just want to make sure it's coordinated
um when it comes to the missal Quality
Index no they had nothing to do with
that that's something that comes in
every year to each City uh they ask for
responses to questions based on things
that they track um but it has nothing to
do with digital government
okay interesting okay let me think for a
minute if anybody has
questions council member
Koski thanks Patrick for the
presentation I thought it was really um
good to see the overview and breakdown
cuz I know that we have had some peace
meal presentations about the office of
digital government um and it was nice to
see everything kind of organized in this
one space um the digital government that
I've seen from Gilbert is as as you
mentioned it's online media when it's
when it's in that space it's earned um
so that means that we don't have to pay
for it when we earn our own um following
and influence and I think from even the
engagements that are shown there's a
extrapolation of touch points with the
community that is even bigger than what
was there so for me the low cost and the
high value are very important because I
think we're being good stewards of the
money that we are using for that office
there's always a request
for um having more printed materials or
post cards and that's very expensive
with all of the postage and I think that
we've done a good job of balancing that
and incorporating some of those
materials with some of the key important
um stakeholder Outreach that we've been
doing recently so I do appreciate that I
really like the direction that the
office of digital government has gone uh
my concern right now
is with the status of our current
channels the following my concern conc
ER is how do we maintain that because
you have to stay Innovative and fresh in
that space and um year to year it can go
from Instagram to Facebook to LinkedIn
and so how are we keeping up with that
how do we plan to keep up with that in
the future that's an excellent question
councilman Kowski um we do use some um
analytics tools Sprout social to help us
analyze the platforms and um engagements
and and um age demographics to get a
feel for if something's trending a
certain way um there's a lot of um uh
national uh information and articles you
can track as well as in regards to
platforms that are starting to kind of
Peter out and new ones that are coming
on the scene uh it's a constant process
of evaluation and as I said if we have
something a Parks and Recreation program
that's targeted towards kids like our
kapal superhero run we will Target those
platforms that have a a larger um or a
younger um age group demographic that
are on them but there are some social
media was just a a Monumental change in
the way governments engage with their
communities um and that has evolved and
um gone through many different
iterations with different platforms and
apps one minute it's popular the next
minute it's it's gone um but I think the
next big um impactor it will artificial
intelligence and how that impacts um
augmented assistance that are are much
more robust and capable than chatbots
and the like and how we manage those
when it comes to um the veracity of
video and and uh stories and photos um I
think that will be our next big space to
Pivot into and really get ahead of to
the benefit of our community to ensure
our residents know they're getting
accurate um reliable uh and authentic
information any other council member
tilki thanks mayor U thanks Patrick I
appreciated the presentation um a couple
things that I I just wanted to mention
is the importance of um the foundation
that our digital government department
has set which has resulted in The
Amazing engagements that we've done when
we've gone out for not only our general
plan our parks and rck plan and even our
Northwest Corridor we you know I I
believe we' shifted the culture a little
bit to meet people where they are and I
think that's kind of the foundation that
we've set and I'm looking forward to
where we're going next uh I know through
our Communications subcommittee and I
know that you all are evaluating some of
this but one of them is um exploring a
website update which may be a little
more user friendly which I think is
important to all of us um we also talked
about the 311 app and how we can um use
that to push more information instead of
just receive information I think that
may be an upgrade but something we're
exploring um
also um when we were were at the
Northwest Corridor meeting um this is a
older part of the community and I
noticed that that when we sent out the
postcard we had an older um demographic
that showed up and so they appreciated
that and so I I totally understand it
being expensive but um what I've noticed
is that we use it when it makes sense
it's just not an every time so you know
combining that I think is really
important um cam you know campaigning uh
now and then to get people to opt in to
different things I talked to a lot of
people and I said hey you know did you
know you could get we we would send you
an email not notifying you of the next
agenda they just don't know and so you
know letting them know that and I love
our storytelling and I'd really like to
be able to get back to more of that as
we move forward so um I think that all
in all we're doing a a a great job and
getting our information out and U
looking forward to the future thanks
thank you councilman to you know and
that is um back to councilman kow's
point the future it it will continue to
be on data and data analytics and data
storytelling we had a phenomenal data
Storyteller unfortunately one of our
favorite local corporations deoe stole
her from us um which was not appreciated
um but we have been actively trying to
fill that role it's a very unique Niche
um but it's one we're going to continue
to uh until we do get it filled because
data storytelling um this data that
we're collecting and and the information
and and what it means for our community
is just of critical
importance Vice May
Anderson um thank you Patrick um just
one question I I heard a little bit of
the discussion with council member
torison talking about having employees
embedded in the Departments versus
having their own independent Pio in that
department are you are you satisfied
with how that's working now having them
embedded like that uh vice
mayor vice mayor Anderson sorry let
called you councilman Anderson vice
mayor Anderson yes and and one thing to
know within police and fire there is
still a sworn position within each of
those departments that is also actively
involved a police Pio and a fire Pio
that's actively involved working with
that individual that's the ined position
um but I I think all in all it works
well as with anything we've got a lot of
service lines it purchasing we've got a
lot of service lines internal service
lines that support all of the
Departments have embedded positions or
just have indiv idual who are identified
specifically support them and from time
to time there's things to work out um
and things that are um not as smooth of
interactions and and so we're constantly
looking for process Improvement but I
think all in all it served the purpose
we hoped it would very
well any other Council mayor bani thank
you mayor thank you Patrick for the
presentation um being the liaison for
parks and wreck I was in a meeting board
or the the um Advisory Board last month
and
the uh consulting company we were
working with for for the survey
mentioned that we were the our
engagement was incredible 60,000 plus
yeah um compared to the next biggest
city I think it was Austin with
30,000 um and I really liked the way
that they made that engagement fun you
know for the kids to get the parents to
to get involved in that um I thought
they did a super job on on that thank
you council member um banani uh Eva kers
bomb on the digital team work closely
Robert has a uh carmone has a very
talented team in parks and and they work
together jointly to uh develop a an
approach to the engagement we needed um
to get that feedback as we continue to
design the build out of our Park system
um but do it in a manner that we can get
as much possible engagement as possible
and they they create
a very fun and unique way to do that I
don't want to do a pun but they knocked
it out of the park they
did dollar um you you need to pay more
than a dollar I would say that that
consultant came in and said they were
going to double the highest number that
they had received which was around
30,000 participation and they were able
to accomplish that in Gilbert which is
just astounding when we were only
getting about 300 responses 600
responses I think the largest response
we had gotten on a poll and Gilbert was
a garbage response with about 8 thou I
see Jen Harrison nodding her head I know
it's do not mess with people's garbage
it was over 8,000 people that responded
to a poll on garbage because garbage is
a very important issue in Gilbert um any
other comments or questions or council
member Tuson well I'm just curious
because I know Chuck and I had asked for
some storytelling regarding the uh water
treatment plant the the impending
increase in costs what there was to do
about it and it we were told a few
things and it fell on De airs in the end
and ended up being it's still
problematic to this day I still answer
questions about that and we had we were
told there was going to be something
that hap would happen to help us out
here as council members to explain
exactly
why it never came to fruition even
close what is a what is a pattern what
is a a a path to get something said that
needs to be said
um council member Tas and so in anytime
um that you not you feel that we haven't
been responsive to get something uh to
you please don't hesitate to reach out
to me um or any one of our assistants I
know we put together a very robust
campaign that included just about every
channel and form of communication that
exists from mailers to newspaper
articles to Flyers to social media to
inserts in the utility bill believe we
also created a A onepage or front and
back onepage document for the council to
use with the main uh components and and
um need to know information so that you
could talk and engage with our residents
who may have questions about this um but
if so I'm not aware of anything that
wasn't done but anytime um you feel like
there is something that you haven't
received please don't hesitate to reach
out Chuck you you recall what we had
talked
about yeah I recall a couple
conversations yeah
but I you know I I'm not on the town's
Social Media stuff I honestly I need to
educate myself on what they are but um
you know anytime you raise
someone's uh utility bills or taxes or
anything like that it's almost
impossible to reach everybody to educate
them um you know I hope we can can
engage even more in the future when
these things happen so we're not stuck
with a lot of questions that you know we
should answer and we do answer them but
um you know I I don't know if there's
certain rules that we can or can't do to
push an agenda forward um when we need
to raise fees or raise
taxes hopefully we won't be raising
taxes council member
Buckley it's okay uh thank you oops Sor
thank you Patrick for the presentation
was great seeing all those numbers and
and what the digital Department actually
does and and the reactions that we get
from them um I personally feel like it's
a musthave department uh I even when you
okay Patrick yeah sorry can you hear me
no yes sorry he was coughing I'm sorry
hope he's okay oh did I interrupt
someone oh okay was coughing oh oh okay
was okay sorry well his coughing and my
sneezing where we're just interacting
here match pair yeah but um you know
even when social media first came about
I was the first one to jump on on board
with with all of that and um there's I
think I feel there's a huge value to the
residents to have this and for their for
us putting information out and them
coming back and a lot of this we've
already said but I think it's important
to to reiterate that um I know there's
been some talk about um maybe having the
digital Department monitored do you see
any need for that all of what what I've
heard and read is from three years ago
and um I just thought I would just ask
ask you what you think about that um
councilman Buckley there was a number of
things from three years ago that were
raised and that's why I brought in an
outside firm to just do a full and
complete objective evaluation and they
did not find any basis for some of the
assertions that were made um I think our
digital Department like every Department
receives proper um oversight and and
guidance through um Regular interactions
and and evaluation of work product and
evaluation of um feedback that we
receive and um I don't think there's
anything further that is warranted or
necessary for them um unlike any other
department in our
organization right right well I I kind
of have the same feeling but I just
wanted to to put that out there because
you know it's been out here and there
yeah
um I think probably uh you know that
that's about it for me I just wanted to
get that clarified in public so thank
you anything else council member
torguson oh vice mayor Anderson just
very quickly this is to to follow on the
the discussion about whether we're
raising taxes or whether we're
um dealing with impact fees and so forth
that's kind of the it's the stuff we
want want to share with the community
but it's it's stuff that's tough to deal
with with sometimes but I'm I was just
thinking that um I've seen other
communities that take uh Bond projects
for instance CIP
projects and they will put a sign of
some kind at that that's explaining this
is where your tax dollars are going in
the bond that we passed do we do that on
digital now if not could we do something
like that we we are doing that now so
the last Bond issuance that we had in
2007 those projects have all uh gone
through to completion um the bond
projects funded from the last
Transportation ballot issue are just now
finishing up design and moving into
construction phase and we are putting up
a signage that that basically saying
your bond dollars at work and and thank
you
good council member tilki thanks mayor
um if I could just piggy back on what
Jim and um Chuck were mentioning um
I'm I'm I'm trying to figure out where
the Gap was because I know there was a
lot of information that went out there
and I thought that the staff had sent
councel an email outlin some of the
things that oops that they were going to
be doing um perhaps maybe just an extra
step if we could maybe get links or
something that says hey this is an
important issue that you wanted to know
how we're communicating with if it could
just come to us that way because um I
don't always see everything on social
media I have to admit and so perhaps I
missed it but that might close that Gap
that Jim was talking about that um maybe
he felt he wasn't followed up with right
away and and so that might just help
thanks thank you Happ too council member
tilki I actually asked to close a gap to
when we um for example recently we've
had an email from the chief that he was
responding to a story and then we get
comments about the story but we've never
seen the story so I've asked if they
could send us the story and it's easier
if it comes in a PDF form sometimes and
not just a link because some are
subscription and yes we have memberships
but it makes it harder if you're out on
your phone like I am and not at my
computer and so I've asked that they try
and fill those gaps and make sure that
we're getting that information and um I
just want to say that you know I've been
around a long time working with the
digital team and yes I had an issue with
an employee doing something that they
should not have done um it was a one-off
it was not led by the department it was
not led by the director of that
department she and I hugged it out the
day she left and um I will say that this
department works hard I think that we
can make some improvements and I will
say that you have a different Council
now than you've ever had before you're
getting you're getting questions and
comments and requests from council
members that you've never had before
we've always had council members that
really had Fairly robust social media on
their own that they were using and we
don't necessarily have that now that
these council members can use to tell a
story about something that they're
interested in so they're looking for an
outlet to have as a council member and
if I go and look at the other channels
for all of the other cities and towns
and I hang out with these Mayors at many
different events mag sitting here
waiting to present I'm at mag three
times a month with Mayors from the
valley and we talk about things that are
going on if I go look at their social
media I see stories about their
individual Mayors I see stories about
their council members and I think that
Gilbert can do better with that with the
items that the council members are all
interested in we're not districted so it
makes a little harder so you're not
going to say come to a coffee in
district one like I've seen in other
cities and towns but I would make that
for a recommendation and um I think that
the the council has to realize that it
it has to be fairly done too at the same
time that it can't always be just
council member banani and torguson doing
these things all the time it has to be
fairly done and evenly done amongst the
council members and the mayor does have
a separate um I hate it X account versus
Twitter I'm still probably going to say
Twitter for 20 years X account and an
Instagram account and it is important to
be able to communicate on the town
accounts when there is something that
needs to be shared to the whole
community but like council member tilki
said from Tuesday evening from last
Wednesday Wednesday Wednesday evening
when we're at the um Northwest Corridor
meeting and the residents there are a
little bit older demographic for our
community the the the that neighborhood
is an older demographic that area is an
old older demographic and a couple of
them said how come there were people at
other meetings than we didn't know about
these meetings and I said because they
follow our social media channels they
receive our electronic newsletter
they're getting emails from the
community about these updates and you
can get those too well we got a postcard
this time and I said well I know about
five years ago for us to send an
election postcard out cost us about
$45,000 so today I'm sure it's more this
was a smaller area but if we were trying
to reach the town of 93,000 residences I
think is about how many homes we have in
Gilbert that would be a huge cost to be
able to do so social media is even more
important and another reason that social
media is important for this community is
because of the age of the demographic of
this community I I mean I've been joking
for the past 5 years that the town's
getting younger as I get
older I don't like that but um you know
the average age of the community is like
33 and a half right now those folks live
here you know where I live and I'm not
35 three and a half here I am on this
247 and um I don't read newspapers sorry
Tom um I use social media had to had to
we love you Tom we do like Tom we do
like Tom so I think that there are ways
that we can make this work and make this
work together and because we have a
different Council than we've ever had
before that they can offer some insight
on to be able to tell their own stories
and to get that information out onto
social
media any other
comments the
uh I don't really
I don't feel
comfortable I do not feel comfortable
there's something that's rubbing me very
wrong uh I can't get it out of the back
of my head but what can we do so that it
it no long the perception let's call it
that we have uh an agendized department
or a divisive department or whatever
it's been called in multiple
meetings what can we do to heal
that
I'm going to take that
Patrick the perceptions being created by
a few of you the perception doesn't
exist I mean the perception exists in a
few people's minds it is not reality the
post that I saw I read I think as many
of the documents as I could that were
furnished for the Judicial Watch in 2021
I went through those and there are as
many complaints from residents and
employees about each other using social
media in a way that they didn't feel was
becoming of a staff
member as there were being pointed out
about staff members that were using the
social media in a way that wasn't
becoming of a staff member those staff
members that were using social media
were doing it to purposely push the
envelope and they were tagging the town
and I'll tell you I followed those
people on social media when I say I live
on this I live on this I think even the
members of the digital team will tell
you I'm probably very proficient on this
I have taught some of them how to
airdrop pictures from phone to phone so
I am very proficient on social media
when it comes to that stuff and I will
tell you that I was seeing those posts I
know that the town was tagged in them if
you're purposely tagging the town it's
because you are trying to make a
statement you are trying to to make
somebody see what you're doing and it
was
Unbecoming of the people doing it and
the people that are still coming in and
complaining about it are doing it to
continue to create an issue that doesn't
exist and we need to move past this it
is time to and I've said it before
council member torguson pull your big
girl panties up and move on right it is
time for us to do that this doesn't
exist it's been looked at it's been
investigated by an outside group and we
need to move
on my four cents versus two cents I
guess any other comments questions
concerns can you teach me how an air
drop later I can teach you how an air
drop I can probably can I I'll tell you
I'm going to tell you a funny story
about social media the team taught us
how to use oh my God what was the name
of it Periscope Periscope oh see Jen
Harrison's in the back of room um we
were all using Periscope and the team
taught us how to use Periscope and about
two weeks later I know a staff member
went to them and said hey can you teach
me how to use Periscope and they're like
it's not being used anymore there's
something new out there and that's what
happens and that's how quickly it
happens we have seen more changes in
technology and apps and social media in
the past eight years since I've been
sitting here as a council member and
mayor then I think we've seen you know
in my lifetime we have seen more changes
and that's what this group does and
that's what it does well and they need
to stay on top of it so that the rest of
us and however many employees we have
today full-time part-time 1800 don't
have to worry about that that they're
the team handling that for the
community any
other
comments okay thank you thank you thanks
Patrick um next we have our friends here
from mag to do a presentation on or
discussion on air quality with um
Maricopa Association of government sorry
I hate to use acronyms when people might
not know what I'm referring to so the
Maricopa Association of government and I
see Rob bour coming to the podium to
introduce our guests thanks
Rob
thank you
mayor yeah as as the mayor mentioned I
I'll be quick here with the introduction
I know you guys have a lot to discuss
tonight long night um with us we do have
representatives from the Maricopa
Association of governments which you may
have uh different um levels of of
familiarity with but marup Association
governments or mag as as we commonly
refer to them um they are they serve as
the regional planning Agency for the
Metropolitan Phoenix area so they're
probably most widely recognized for um
their work in in transportation planning
but as you may or may not know mag
actually covers a lot of specialty areas
and and uh they do so by um among other
among other things by by bringing us
together as cities and towns on
committees um both policy committees
that that develop um policies in in the
different areas as well as technical
advisory committees that really um are
are our city and town experts that come
together to to develop programs and and
um share information on on various
subjects so one of those key specialty
areas is air quality so Meg serves as
the lead air quality planning Agency for
this region um but but this uh I guess
this area is a little bit unique um
because their policy Authority or or
flexibility is is limited since air
quality is regulated by federal law and
other agencies that that um enforce and
Implement air quality measures so it's a
very technical and complicated subject
they're here to discuss with you all
tonight um as as they will explain it's
also very important subject because of
how much of a significant impact it can
have on things like uh Economic
Development and transportation in the
region um which which I'm sure you'll
hear from them but um so finally just
want to introduce the the three
Representatives that we have here uh
joining us from mag this evening and
hand it over to them for their
presentation so um with us tonight is
mag executive director ed zerker u mag's
Chief of Staff audre ker Thomas and Matt
Poppin who was recently promoted to
mag's environmental director so Ed and
team if you want to come on
up this Podium Ed will you please take
this Podium yeah thanks and Matt sorry
thanks for joining us this
evening Matt we'll have you over here
with Ed two there we go rob can you yeah
shut that mic off okay and I'll pass
this off to Matt actually I'll just give
it to you okay you can click through for
me thank you there you go we'll get this
all figured out thank you thanks thanks
Ed thank you mayor Peterson uh members
of the council it's good to be here with
you as Rob said I'm Ed zerker I'm the
executive director of The marope
Association of government
and Rob gave you a bit of an orientation
but just to kind of put it up on the
screen in terms of a map mag is 32
member agencies that is all 27 cities
and towns in Maricopa County and several
in panal
County both counties Maricopa panal and
then our three native nations uh
comprise our 32 members it is a council
of governments and a metropolitan
planning organization which have
different meanings but basically it's
the place where all the all the regional
cities come together with one vote each
to have conversations and discuss issues
of regional importance I say problems
that have no borders things like
transportation and air quality uh and
your mayor mayor Peterson serves on the
Regional Council as well as on the
executive committee but you also have
many and many of your staff in on our
technical committees helping with things
like traffic and intelligent
transportation and yes air quality and
some Human Services planning uh and we
see Rob and Amy probably a lot more than
they wish we would see them down there
helping us out with that so this is the
the mag region as you can see it is as I
said 32 member agencies by land area we
kind of forget how large we are relative
but this land area is as big as the
state of New Jersey and by population if
we were a state we'd be the 25th largest
state in the United States so it's it's
a massive scale uh represented by all
the Mayors and leaders of the town next
slide please so our role in air quality
as the air quality planning agency is
first we are the lead air quality
planning for marope and portions of
panel it is governed by the Clean Air
Act that is the federal law that governs
this and we all are operating in some
form or another under the Clean Air Act
the United States Environmental
Protection Agency or EPA they uh
regulate and enforce the federal Clean
Air Act mag develops the regional plan
to comply with the Clean Air Act
the State of Arizona develops some State
rules and they enforce and adopt parts
of our plan for Arizona so uh things
like the the emissions check that we go
through with our cars that comes from as
if you go there you're uh going to the
Arizona DEQ and Maricopa County and
panal County separately they have their
own sets of rules that they also enforce
and permits for business as Rob said
this really becomes an issue for
business as we talk about air quality we
first want to focus on the fact that
amazing work has been done in this
region by everyone coming together to uh
make air quality better and we'll take a
look at the next slide this was put
together actually by our friends at Mar
well sorry the first of all this is the
boundaries uh SL the next Slide the
boundaries of what we're going to talk
about uh basically of Mag are also a
boundary of where we have an ozone
problem the the bright fuchsia bright
pink that's the boundary for air quality
in in terms of ozone there are other
ozone attainment areas that have to do
with dust and and fine fine particles
but we're going to focus today on um on
ozone
primarily we will talk a little bit
about
pm2.5 next slide so if you talk about
when we talk about our message it is one
of great success but more work to do
isn't that how it always seems to be
this was put together by our friends of
Maricopa County if you start at the top
and you think for the last 34 years
since 1990 which is on the far left of
the slide to the present day what's
happened the gross domestic product of
our region has gone gone up five and a
half times economic growth we all feel
that the next one the orange line which
is there vehicle miles traveled in
population have about doubled the
population for the last 34 years about
double vehicle miles just a a little bit
ahead of that so there's a lot of
activity there's a lot more people
there's a lot more
traffic and there's about 50% more
energy consumption which is a testament
to our utilities who and our residents
who've done good work on conservation so
we've doubled population we've doubled
vehicle miles we've 50% more energy
consumption but here's a critical piece
total emissions are down by over
70% and that comes about by cleaner
technology our cars and trucks to they
are cleaner than they were in 1990
because of progress the things we talk
about like having to check the smog
checks that we do and the other other uh
rules that have come in place so this is
really a great story of what happens
when we come together as a region and a
state to tackle a
problem here's the however we still have
more to do and the first one we want to
talk to you about is Ozone uh not the
stuff that we used when I was a kid
learned about the the layer out there
that the sun was going to you're going
to get a sunburn because the ozone
layer's gone away this is about ozone
down here on the surface that we breathe
in and and it's a little different so
with that I'm going to turn over to
someone who knows the science way better
than me and that's our environmental
director Matt Poppin and he'll walk you
through ozone and we will have time at
the end to answer questions thank you
mayor hi Matt welcome thank you mayor
thank you council
members so as Ed said we we still have
an uh We've made great progress in Ozone
we've met the three prior EPA ozone
standards but our latest ozone standard
we're still struggling to meet and we
don't currently attain it so briefly how
is Ozone
formed um this is a very simplified
version but you have emissions of
volatile organic compounds which are
things from paints and solvents and also
natural sources trees vegetation give
off volatile organic
compounds that in conjunction with
oxides of nitrogen basically tailpipe
emissions anything with the Smoke Stack
is going to any combustion source is
going to produce nitrogen
oxides you combine that with ample Sun
sunlight and that produces Ozone now
this is a very simplified version
there's lots of other factors that go
into it but this is the general
chemistry of how Ozone is formed in our
region so what's the challenge what's
the big challenge that we're currently
facing
so if you see here this line represents
our ozone concentrations over time so
back in 1998 which is where that graph
starts you can see a steady decline in
Ozone concentrations over time up to
about 2017 there's been some ups and
downs that's due to weather patterns we
have a dip around 2008 with the Great
Recession um but in general we've had
this nice downward Trend in Ozone
concentrations
also These Bars represent emissions that
are produced by man-made sources so
these are all of the emissions from cars
from our industrial facilities you can
see over time those have decreased as
well uh the light the light gray are the
nitrogen oxide emissions I talked about
and the dark are the volatile organic
compounds so both of the chemicals that
come together to to form ozone have
decreased over
time but something has happened since
2017 and that link is now broken so you
can see since
2017 our average ozone levels have gone
up that's that green line the darker
green line is what we think ozone would
be if we exclude the impacts of
wildfires so we know wildfires have
increased rapidly over the last 5 to
seven years if we take those out of the
equation we think that's what where the
uh the o levels would be but you can see
we still have reductions in emissions
from man-made sources even with all the
incredible growth this area has
experienced we are still reducing
emissions from man-made sources due to
the better technology cleaner fuels all
of those things so the link is now
broken and this is a big problem if
local reductions and Emissions aren't
impacting ozone what do we do moving
forward how do we address ozone so this
is the big problem that we're trying to
investigate and address as we move
forward so overall you can see that
pattern of decreasing
emissions conversely ozone has increased
we're really trying to figure out what's
going on and and move forward as a as a
region another big problem is when you
look at modeling so we we do modeling to
try and figure out where does this ozone
come from what are the sources that
comes from well both our modeling and
the modeling that EPA does agree with
each other and what they say is almost
80% of the ozone that impacts our region
comes from outside of our region it
either comes from natural sources or
International sources or Interstate
sources so we can only really control
about 20% of the ozone that impacts our
region and so as the standard has gotten
stricter over time it becomes harder and
harder to lower ozone levels when we can
only control 20% of it locally so this
is another issue that complicates us
being able to meet this new
standard like I mentioned before
wildfires have really impacted the the
ozone
situation it was pretty steady so these
are VOC emissions from Wildfire which is
the main chemical that contributes to
Ozone you can see uh the the the darker
line is uh
the total VOC emissions and if you
subtract out wildfires you have the
green line but since 2017 you have this
dramatic increase right especially 2020
21 and 2022 and these are the five
surrounding states um because we know
that it's not just the fires here in
Arizona that cause ozone to increase but
ozone can be transported into our region
so the fires in California Nevada
Colorado Utah all of those uh bring
ozone into our region um and we expect
this trend to continue unfortunately
into the
future so that increased Wildfire
activity is another thing we have to
deal with as we try and address this
standard so what are the timeline
constraints we are under as a planning
agency so as Ed mentioned we're the lead
planning agency our responsibility is to
put a plan together to EPA that they can
approve and says yes we think this
region is going to meet the stand
and so we work with our partners at
Arizona Department of Environmental
Quality Maricopa County panal County air
quality control district they come up
with the measures that get put into a
plan and say this is what we're going to
do um to meet the standard but I want to
walk through some very key dates with
you that are both have occurred and are
coming up so you can kind of know the
time frames we're under and some of the
struggles we have so back in November
EPA issued what's known as a finding a
failure to submit we couldn't put
together a plan that said hey EPA this
is how we're going to make the standard
our air quality data already said hey
guys you blew it you went past the the
due date um so because of that EPA
issued this finding and with that
triggers sanctions clock sanctions
clocks so if we don't submit a new
planned EPA within a certain amount of
time uh sanctions will be triggered and
so you see the first sanctions date
that's listed here is May 17 2025 and
what that is is that's two to one
offsets so what that basically means is
if you have a very large business and
they want to expand or if you want to
bring in a new business for every one
ton of pollution they put into the air
they have to offset it by two tons so
they have to go and find offset
somewhere which is very difficult to do
um those offsets just aren't available
um so that's one major sanction we are
seeking to avoid and then two years from
that date November 17th
2025 EPA can withhold uh Highway funding
from the region uh which would be a
major blow to our transportation sector
and the plans that we have for continued
growth and development so what are we
doing to address that EPA has given us
two options we can put together a brand
new air quality plan that says hey EPA
here's how we're going to make the
standard as long as we submit that to
them before those sanctions clocks start
they'll turn off the
clocks uh EPA has also kind of worked
with us and said actually if you just
submit a couple pieces that you left out
from your plier plan if you get those up
to us and we can approve those we can
turn off the clocks as well we're still
working through which direction to go
with that but we're definitely committed
to getting a plan up to EPA to turn off
those sanctions clocks um the other
thing I want to mention here as you see
see this idea of a moderate area
attainment date and a serious area
attainment date so what EPA does is EPA
puts you into categories depending on
how bad your ozone Is So currently we're
in a moderate non-attainment area and
our attainment date is upcoming August
3rd 2024 we're not going to make that
either our ozone levels are too high for
that so what that means is eventually
we're going to be reclassified as a
serious non-attainment area that comes
with additional controls additional
Clean Air Act requirements that we have
to do as a region um so and then and
we'll have 3 years to attain that
standard we're really hoping that we can
put a plan together um that can show
attainment by that new attainment date
of serus so we don't just keep getting
bumped up further into the future areas
like California are in this category
called Extreme right we don't want to
get to that situation like California
where we're in extreme non- attainment
so that's why we're really working hard
with our partners to try and put
together a plan um to address the ozone
standard and these are some of the big
dates that are driving that
process so what's the big picture so
hopefully eventually attainment of this
2015 o ozone standard will ultimately
both support Public Health the
environment and economic development if
we can get to attainment that's the best
possible outcome for everybody in the
region so as I mentioned we're working
very closely with adq amop County and
and panal County to develop a plan
that's approvable um and so what does
that do if we submit an approvable plan
to EPA what does that what does that
accomplish so it avoids the sanctions
including the potential loss of Federal
Highway funding and it prevents that
further reclassification into the
stricter categories where there would be
additional regulation on business and
industry so that's why we're really
focused on getting an approvable
plan
would you like me to stop for questions
on ozen before I go to pm2.5 or would
you like me to continue on through 2.5
as well you know what let's let's stop
right there and see if anyone has any
questions I know that's a lot of
information and I've heard it two or
three times now from Matt so um I've had
a little bit more time with it if you
have questions council member Bon
Giovani thank you mayor is anyone
passing does anyone attain stes I mean
is anyone passing right now there are
some areas that are attaining the
standard yes um but certainly areas
throughout the Inner Mountain West have
similar problems so Las Vegas has a
similar issue a couple areas in Utah
Colorado we all have kind of the same
issue where our emissions are going down
but we are uh we're not seeing that
reduction in
Ozone so we think it is due to wildfires
there could be some changes in chemistry
so there are other there are other areas
that have a very similar situation to us
does population have anything to do with
that I take it
um it can be a factor right also
meteorology plays a big factor our
Valley and our geography kind of traps
the pollution as well if we didn't have
that the breezes could come through and
the ozone wouldn't accumulate right so
there's several factors that play into
it but of course uh population you can
get increased emissions from people but
as you see in our graphs even with the
amazing growth we've had here in
population our emissions have still come
down is there a a city that comes to
mind that's
passing yeah I mean there are several I
would say um almost all of the Midwest
is attaining the standard um I think the
areas obviously California is there are
several areas in California that aren't
attaining the standard um uh the area of
the East Coast has attainment problems
um Texas has some areas that that aren't
attaining um and they're and they're
generally around the larger Metropolitan
areas okay thank you the other thing
that to go with your population question
council member Bon Giovanni is we're
constantly building and so constantly
building is creating all of this in the
air and one of the biggest things for us
is sitting in a bowl Denver has the same
issue we sit in a bowl here in the
valley council member Kowski is next hi
thank you Matt for being here yeah um my
question just relates
to why is Ozone bad in the air what are
the effects to people or the
community right and and so EPA has has
published some literature that ozone can
exasperate asthma um it can um and I'm
not a public health expert on this so
this is not my area of expertise on it
but there are certainly uh public health
effects associated with with the
standard and so that's one of epa's
charges is that they have to set the
standard just based on public health um
they can't consider costs they can't
consider impacts to businesses um
industry and so right now the way the
Clean Air Act is structured they can
only set the limit based on on public
health impacts and council member Koski
to follow up um we have asked for a for
someone to come in and talk to the mag
Regional committee on the public health
issues when it comes to Ozone 2 um so I
think that'll be something that we'll
have as a presentation coming up in the
probably near future I have one more
question sure um Matt you mentioned how
80% of the ozone in our region is out of
our
control what are some of the strategies
or reactionary measures that have been
successful in reducing ozone in the
environment well I think the
historically the measures that have had
the most impact have been epa's um
standards on vehicles that have that
those have historically had the most
impact when we see just the fleet
turnover from older cars going to newer
cars that has historically had the most
impact um unfortunately we're not seeing
that as much anymore in our area so one
of the things we have um recently we had
an opportunity to meet with Joe gofman
the assistant administrator of the EPA
he came out uh to Arizona and met with a
variety of groups um and we've asked uh
for particular help in our area to
address these kind of issues that are
uniquely challenging to the Inner
Mountain West and one of those is this
broken link between
local emissions and Rising ozone we've
asked for their expertise to examine why
is that occurring are there changes in
chemistry are there changes in
meteorology that are causing that um
we've also asked for their their help
with EV valuing what is the exact impact
from wildfires what is the exact impact
from International emissions so we can
have a better understanding of that 8020
split um but I would say historically to
your question the the measures that have
historically been the most effective
have been just the kind of natural Fleet
turnover and the stricter vehicle
standards over time but with the
disconnect that you're showing in that
relationship it seems like it's unknown
what other treatments could be done to
reduce ozone right and that's the
struggle we have right so when we come
to policy makers and say hey would you
be willing to adopt this new measure
it's understandable for them to go well
why would I adopt something if I don't
know the impact it's going to have right
so we fully understand that that's why
we want to be able to explain the
science
better have a better understanding of
what measures really will um really will
provide a benefit to our region I will
say that Maricopa County and panal
County are still committed to looking at
ways they can reduce emissions Maricopa
County has started a process of um
evaluating some new rules and so they
are still committed to looking at ways
that can help um but yes it is very
important for us to understand what will
have an impact because otherwise it's
it's very understandable you know it's
hard to put together a plan we don't
want to just put together a paper plan
that checks a box right we want to put
together a plan that actually is is uh
can make an impact and have a real
impact on the region thank you council
member torguson I'm just curious it's
minus 72% on the one uh on the
emiss per capita that's got to be
incredibly low if you did it by person
the growth in this area would have to
look an
incredibly push down lower number than
would be expected in an established area
let's say like you were talking Boston
that doesn't have a a big flux in in
population our population in the
Valley's doubled yeah yet we're down I
mean per capita is there any is there
any response from the federal government
and the fact that you've got twice as
many people and still down that much per
capita I I I certainly think we make
that argument when we say to them and
this area already has 93 control
measures in place for ozone because
we've been in non- attainment for those
prior standards so there are already a
lot of measures in place we certainly
make that argument EPA hey look we've
had tremendous growth tremendous
economic
activity and the region has done a great
job in limiting emissions even with that
and as as you said we're one of the
fastest growing areas in the country
and we're still being able to lower
emissions locally um so that's certainly
something we emphasize with EPA and say
hey you need to work with us here uh
it's an important uh fact for them to
acknowledge because the the knee-jerk
thing that people often say is well
population went up so therefore
emissions have to go up right that's
kind of the knee-jerk reaction but it's
not the case in our in our
area so just do you believe that all the
municipalities have done whatever they
can do economically technologically to
bring those numbers down to address a
quality or is there something that we
would be lacking so you know we're still
examining that that's why we really want
to get a better idea of the science we
really want to isolate what is going to
have an impact prior to 2017 it didn't
really matter what we reduced whether it
was nitrogen oxides or volatile organic
compounds we could see benefit from both
we don't know right now if that's true
so we really have to examine that and
see if
uh we could be in this like I said ozone
is uh is a very complex chemical
reaction so there are it's constantly
being created and destroyed throughout
the day and through the evening and so
there are times when those emissions can
contribute to more ozone and then there
are sometimes when those emissions
actually eat the ozone and break it back
down right it's constantly going back
between ozone and oxygen that one oxygen
atom and so we really need to understand
the science better to figure out if
there are addition local measures that
can be impactful I think overall in the
broad picture we still think that if we
are able to reasonably reduce emissions
that will be helpful it won't be hurtful
um but again we want to make sure we
understand that as we move forward in
this planning
process council member tilki thank you
mayor hi Matt thank you for your
presentation and keeping it at a level
that I can understand so I really
appreciate that as I know it's very it's
very complicated so thank you um I'm
really interested in the conversation
surrounding
wildfires and um Forest management and I
hope I don't know if that's the correct
word but I see a lot of that happening
now in the mountains when when I go up
there I'm curious what our
responsibility is to encourage that to
get more funding for that because that
has a a direct impact on us not only
from the forest but when I'm driving to
the mountains the roadsides cuz you you
you see a lot of fire start because
people pull off in there's weeds and
things like that so I'm not I'm just
curious maybe it falls outside of our
realm but maybe we need to be advocating
for more dollars and what you think
about that yeah yeah I think the best
resource for you to contact with that I
don't have a lot of information for you
on that would be the Arizona Department
of Environmental Quality they are really
the one who are responsible for
um and probably in conjunction Al also
with the forest service and and and the
Bureau of Land Management um certainly
if there are ways we can reduce forest
fires that will be helpful um but they
would have the more information than I
would for you on that piece in terms of
the efforts they're doing uh I know just
kind of uh observationally um with my
colleagues over at adq they do uh issue
the smoke forecast and when they try and
do the prescribe Burns and things like
that and the efforts for Forest Clearing
they are very active in that sphere so
if that's something you're interested I
would I would recommend uh uh going to
them for more information but that's um
in general we when we put the plan
together we can only um address sources
within the non attainment area we can't
really address the sources outside of it
so there are wildfires that occur within
our area right certainly in Tonto and
hila we've had some major fires
especially in 2020 and
2021 um but most of the fires that
impact us are outside of our
area council member Buckley thank you uh
so council member tilky asked part of my
question but the other part what are you
guys doing is what can we do about the
emissions from the forest fires and are
we working with like the California area
do we know what comes over from them and
how
much yeah I think increased coordination
Interstate would be helpful for us to
know we there is there are a lot of data
sources out there that tell us how many
acres have been burned when the fires
are burning and EPA does provide this
regulatory relief where those wildfires
are not supposed to count against us
right we we can't control it we're
supposed to be able to exclude those
when we put together a plan saying hey
this is how we've met the standard uh
but that's a very long and honorous
process right now um so um increased
coordination can certainly be helpful
but also we're really asking EPA to work
with us on that process to help us
streamline that process so we can
exclude events that we have absolutely
no control over um and and won't have
control over into the future so how how
are we capturing what comes over from
from any of the
states yeah in terms of
the O the ozon yeah yeah so yeah we we
have models that can that can estimate
the amount of emissions from those fires
as well as the ozone that's created from
that so that is an input into our what
we call our boundary conditions when we
do the modeling um so we do there's an
ammal inventory available for those so
we we do use that information when we
model the impacts of ozone uh for our
plan okay so are are you leaving out
those you know like your your uh chart
showed the fire line and then the
regular line are you leaving those out
then of the calculations that we're
working with we're asking EPA for
permission to do that yes and they have
to they have to kind of say yes you can
do that um and so we're working back and
forth with them to do that but yes that
would be our plan that's kind of the
standard practice is you remove those
emissions you remove those impacts and
you put together a plan saying hey but
for the wildfires we would have attained
by this date okay thank you thank you
council member bani thank you mayor um
Matt does um does the Midwest compete
for the same Highway dollars that we
do you know I I am not an expert on how
Highway funding is distributed at all I
don't know if audre would
like might be a to answer thank you in
some ways yes I mean there's there's a
one pool nationally there's a formula
that's used to distribute it so I guess
in some ways we're we're competing
there's some competitive grants but the
money we're talking about is given to us
through formula um and so it's kind of
hard hard to say we're directly
competing always but in some in some
portion of it we are so you don't have
to answer this if you don't want to no
comment will work with me but are these
uh unrealistic expectations is a way for
the federal government to stack the deck
to push more dollars to the
Midwest um I I don't think it's I don't
think it's that
um I I what it goes to the Clean Air Act
says there's one Health standard that we
have to meet EPA has to set a standard
for air clean air so that we're healthy
and the science says that that standard
is s such and such and it and it's
continually lowered as the science gets
more
sophisticated to miss cow's question
ozone attacks the lungs and so very
young people with underdeveloped lungs
old people with weaker lungs and those
of us with asthma or other were were
susceptible to it so you see CL you know
it's an ozone day please drive less take
the bus fill up your car after after
dark because that's when the stuff comes
out of the you know out of the uh The
Filling Station
it doesn't affect when it's not in
sunlight so there's those things but it
it's really about that standard and so
EPA is is enforcing this standard and
what we're trying to tell them is we get
the standard we all we all breathe the
same air right we all want nobody says I
want dirty air but we're trying to find
with them is that like what's realistic
for us to be able to deal with um so I
think it's I think EPA is not quite sure
what to do with it either
um that's as much as your questions W
have a separate or or different
expectation or do we all have the same
no we're we're all the same and to
Matt's Point that's a little bit of the
problem is our climate and
environment creates ozone differently
I'm from I'm originally from Kansas I'll
tell you Kansas City doesn't have the
problem well it's because the wind's
blowing at East well so the people east
of Kansas City are saying well why
should we be punished for Kansas City
and we're saying why should we be
punished for California right um but
though there's a National Standard but
but the impacts are different based on
we have a lot more Sunshine we as Matt
said we're in a basin it gets trapped
here and you'll see that with the this
next presentation on PM 2.5 it's similar
here we we because of our climate and
our geography and our and our weather we
have a little bit different and so that
one siiz fits-all does make it hard
always to meet the standard uniformly
Council B yeah member bovan I will tell
you being from Missouri and Ed is a
jhawk there's a smell that comes from
Kansas over into Missouri that has to be
dealt with we were happy to pass it
along to
Missouri I was going to say the first
part of your question about an
unattainable unrealistic that's the
problem and like Ed just said that keeps
changing all of our cities states
counties are not the same and so all of
us trying to meet that just doesn't work
for some of us yeah council member
torguson uh with prop 400 and how that
works in regards to air quality is there
does that go to Road diets things in the
mag 2050 plan or tell me so thank you
for raising the question about uh prop
479 and that Transit and so so more
efficient transportation is actually a
huge benefit to the work Matt has to do
for ozone attainment that we all have to
do and it's about making our freeways
more efficient it's about making our
streets more efficient it's about
Transit allowing people if they choose
to not drive their own car all that
stuff has the effect of lowering
emissions the less time a car is sitting
in congestion or the fewer cars on the
road all those things kind of go it's
it's really it's lowering emissions but
that also comes by cars getting cleaner
so hybrid vehicles instead of fully gas
vehicles electric vehicles those sorts
of things um all contribute to because
the biggest thing that we can do in this
region is reduce the amount of stuff
that comes out of all of our tail pipes
and and prop
479 gives the resources for us to be
able to do that and it's far and away
it's by making our freeways more
efficient is is the majority of them our
freeways in our streets more efficient
is the majority of money in
479 but aren't the emissions markedly
down
yeah I don't have the how much further
do you think you can drive them down
well that's what we're trying to figure
out right there's there is if if every
if everything was electric it would be
way down that's who knows how long
that's going to take there's fuel
sources like hydrogen there's just
simply Vehicles getting more and more
and more efficient even when they're
burning combustible fuels all that's is
what's happening over time and that's
the reason why you're seeing our
population's up our vehicle miles travel
are up our emissions are down but what
we have to have is even even fewer
emissions to keep to keep on that path
but I was part of a meeting I think it
was just gek but they were discussing
the fact you could take all the cars off
the road and still not meet that
standard is that correct that's that's
probably a little overstated but it that
that's to the point Matt had on this
slide about you know 20% is stuff we can
control and 80% isn't
there there's a point and that's what
we're talking EPA about there's a point
at which you can't realistically reduce
it much
more and if that connection between the
the
decrease uh stuff in the air and the
decrease ozone is broken where it's
going this way and this way that's what
we have to have EPA help with that's
what they have to come up with some
other Creative Solutions for because
there there may be just some point where
we just can't find any more reductions
we think there are some more reductions
the county has a rule about composting
facilities I'm I'm guessing you don't
have big composting facilities in
Gilbert but you sometimes in the summer
see the big fires along the Salt River
where there are there are companies that
have large composting operations and
they catch fire in the heat so there's
some rules about that that will reduce
the the impact of composting on putting
stuff into the air so there's some
places around the edges where we can
continue to work I don't want to say
there's nothing we can do but the the
point is really we've got to have epa's
help on this from a national perspective
and that sort of speaks to uh Mr Bon
javan's
Point counc member bonjan thank you
mayor um what did we learn from 2020
when no one was
driving what did we learned in 2020 no
one was driving Lear that the roads were
better that's a that's a great question
and and as you saw we didn't see a big
change in
Ozone yeah one of one of the
complicating factors with and this is
super technical so I apologize up front
is it's the fourth highest value in a
year that determines that what your
standard is at right so if you just have
four bad days and all the other days are
clean it doesn't really matter it's that
fourth day that gets you and so what we
really saw with 2020 was it didn't help
it didn't affect that episodic day it
kind of lowered the overall average a
little bit
but we had enough bad days that it
didn't matter we had enough wildfires in
2020 as well that kind of overtook it so
2020 ended up being one of our worst
pollution years and so you get these
counterintuitive stories which makes air
quality very frustrating very hard to
explain um so we did see if you look on
average there was some impact but to
your point yeah we saw over a 20 30%
reduction in the amount of vehicle miles
traveled during that period and it
didn't have an impact on what the EPA
judges us on right and that's very
difficult to to explain to people and
it's a very difficult fact to overcome
yeah thanks Matt for that part do you
want to move on to the PM 2.5 and I'll
go I'll go quickly through this and
allow um questions and I appreciate your
engagement and your interest in the
topic I hope I hope I hope it's helpful
for you so in addition to Ozone our
second Big Challenge is PM 2.5 and EPA
just came out with this brand new
standard in
2024 um and known as what we call pm2.5
these are the very very super small fine
particles we like to show this graph
this graph so the big long tube is a
human hair that's 70 microns and then
you see like fine beach sand that's 90
microns and then you get pm2.5 which you
can see is the little pink dots on top
of the big blue dots which are pm10 so
that's how small these particles are and
so the danger the public health danger
is this is one that is probably the most
steadied in terms of Public Health our
our lungs cannot get rid of these
particles if they get trapped in our
body we don't have the ability to expel
them like we can with dust they're just
too small so over time it can really be
um can really impact folks especially
folks who have pre-existing conditions
or other or other health issues so what
EPA did is we had an annual stand
standard of 12 and they made it quite
more stringent they dropped it down all
the way to
9 so in our region we've got three
monitors in Maricopa County that
currently violate this new
standard um you can see them located
mainly here in the in uh Western Phoenix
so you have West Phoenix which is our
highest monitor at
10.5 Durango complex at 10.2 South
Phoenix at
10.4 um we don't have a monitor out here
in the Gilbert region the closest one
would be Mesa it's at 6.8 and there's a
monitor in Apache Junction that's
roughly about the same as well so the
East Valley in general uh meets the
standard and we have one monitor in
panal County that's violating called The
Hidden Valley monitor this monitor is a
little bit different than the ones and
this is a rural monitor so it's impacted
by different sources agriculture is one
of the major sources that impact that
monitor uh so it's very different than
the emissions that impact the ones in
Maricopa County
so what causes
pm2.5 uh there's some main sources of
pm2.5 so any combustion activity whether
that be fires or vehicle exhaust or
exhausts from an industrial Smoke Stack
any engine any boiler that's going to
produce
pm2.5 and then any activity that
disturbs the desert soil so construction
activities driving on unpaved roads um
agricultural activity that stir up dust
a component of that dust is going to be
pm2.5 as
well and as you all are probably really
familiar with during the winter time
pm10 emissions from wood burning and
more recently fireworks can be extremely
high uh we find that our highest
emissions of pm2.5 are in the wintertime
and in the and in the fall so we have a
real seasonal pattern to our emissions
so kind of on average the PM 2.5
emissions in the winter and fall range
between 11 to 15 so over the standard
spring and summer were between 5 to 7 so
it's it's very much dependent upon the
weather one example we talk about for um
this impact on on January 1st of this
year uh the west Phoenix monitor had a
reading of
180 for pm2.5 which is 20 times over the
standard of nine and that was primarily
due to cons tumor fireworks as well as
residential wood
burning I'm sure you've gone outside on
New Year's Eve and look at a street
light and you can just see the smoke
hanging that's PM
2.5 um and so when you have a one day
that's 20 times over the standard you
have to have 20 days at zero to get
yourself back down to being uh meeting
this um annual standard so that's a big
uh a big issue but I will say we're in
engaged in activities with the state
with Maricopa County to better
understand what the sources are we're
trying to put out more what we call
chemical speciation monitors where they
can actually take in a sample and we we
take that sample to a laboratory and the
laboratory can tell you oh 20% of this
is from vehicle exhaust 40% is from dust
30% from wood burning Etc so we'll have
a better idea of what the sources are
over time and it because we will know
that the difference sources over
time a couple dates for you to keep in
mind so within one year February 7th
2025 uh the states have to submit
recommendations to EPA so adq is
responsible for this process they're
going to look at the monitoring data
they're going to look at meteorology
they're going to look at emission
sources and they're going to make
recommendations to the governor and say
this these are the areas that we think
aren't attaining the standard these are
the areas that we think are so they'll
make those recommendations to the
governor it's a public process folks can
comment on that uh can comment on the
technical process we'll be involved in
that process as well and watching it
very
closely after the states submit their
recommendations a year after that EPA
then comes back and says this is what we
think are are the areas that aren't
meeting the standard so it'll be a new
non- attainment
area EPA will be looking at data from
2022 through
2024 uh when they when they make that
decision and most likely we will have a
new non attainment area in Maricopa
County and likely a new one in panal the
data isn't coming down fast enough to to
meet these new
standards so if we're a new non
attainment area what does that mean um
we'll initially be classified as
moderate and our attainment date will be
in
2032 we have to submit a plan to EPA
within 18 months saying this is this is
what we're going to do to meet this new
standard what's in plan again that
emissions inventory here are the sources
that cause
pm2.5 here are the measures that we
think are reasonable to try and meet the
standard here's how we can model the
standard here's how we can prove that we
can make it and if we don't make it we
have to have some measures sitting off
to the side saying if we don't make it
these measures will kick in
automatically that's what's known as
contingency measures so I wanted to go
through that quickly to be respectful of
your time if you have any questions
please let us know
thank you Matt any question yes vice
mayor Anderson thank you Matt yeah a
simple question is is this uh new
standard unique to the current
Administration is it unique to the sorry
current
Administration I you know again what
they've told us is the standard is is
based on on science right so they've
they've determined that this is the
standard that's most protective of
Public Health um I know it's being
litigated and it will continue to be
litigated and so we'll we'll get the
Court's opinion on that um but what
we've kind of said to folks who've asked
similar types of questions is
historically we've seen lawsuits on the
PM lawsuits on air quality standards
have not been successful and that's
largely because the Clean Air Act says
the only thing you consider is public
health so I know there can be arguments
about well we don't agree with the
public health that's in there so that's
certainly something that that folks can
argue over but in general what we've
seen over time is those lawsuits are not
successful uh because the courts have
upheld the Clean Air Act and said y
that's what it says and so we even
though it's going to cost a lot or it
might be impossible or very hard to
attain we don't have the authority to
overturn it um so that's probably my my
best answer to that question for
you any other want add something I would
just say you know as we wrap up PM PM is
really a great example of the power of
the Region 20 years ago we had a
significant pm10 problem and the region
put significant effort into Paving dirt
roads enforcing people not driving and
parking on dirt Lots things we kind of
take for granted today and putting
street sweepers out to to gather the
dust and you still I think the town of
Gilbert probably has some street
sweepers those street sweepers are
funded by mag because they're part of
our effort to to clean the dust out of
the air and I think we could all say say
excuse me I think we could all say that
the air appears cleaner today because
we've really attacked the dust problem
this is another one where we're going to
have to do similar efforts for it but
we've had a we've had a track record in
this region of successfully doing that
so I'm hopeful we have ways to to deal
with it because we've done it in the
past thanks Ed council member Kowski my
question relates a little bit to what
you just mentioned Ed with the PM 2.5
non attainment is this new non-
attainment because of the adjustment in
the number has mag ever been in non-
attainment for PM 2.5 before and what
are the resources or funding that then
comes to the region to help address the
non- attainment so I'll take the first
part which is yes it kind of goes to the
vice mayor's question the standard was
lowered by EPA so we're at the same
thing we were last year it's just now
they've lowered the standard and so
we're in we have three monitors where
where we're out of compliance but Matt
can can answer the rest of that question
yeah so we've never been in non
attainment the Maricopa County has never
been in non- attainment for pm2.5 there
is a small non- attainment area around
that Hidden Valley monitor for the an
for the Daily Standard so there's two
standards there's a daily Standard and
an annual one we're talking about the
annual one here that they lowered we
currently have a non- attainment area
down there but they're meeting the
standard they now meeting it so there's
no additional measures that need to be
done for the Daily
Standard and and largely the measures
that are helpful are largely the
measures that were done to control dust
that's a big help and then also the
measures the vehicle measures as well
that reduce the emissions from tail
pipes those have been helpful as well
but in general this is going to be a new
non- attainment area and so similar to
the pm10 non- attainment we do expect
that there will be additional funding or
resour and strategies that mag will
encourage member agencies to do so we
don't get additional funding from EPA
okay um for an for being designated non
attainment area um now what we can do is
we have the congestion mitigation and
air quality funds which is a portion of
the transportation funds and so we have
used those to fund street sweepers
before that's one of the things we do we
allow cities to replace their street
sweepers because we believe it it helps
uh so there are certain funds we can use
that way but in general EPA does not
provide you funds when you when you
become a non- attainment area and the
CMAC funds doesn't increase either it's
that's set on a different standard I
think that's there there's a different
formula for those funds unrelated to
non-attainment okay thank you yeah so
they lower the standards but you don't
get any funding to M to help maintain
them yes yeah any other comments it's
unfunded mandate from the federal
government we love when they do that to
us yes m there's no way we can put like
tents over those
monitors a big fan big fan right there's
entertainment there right yeah yeah um
Matt thank you so much for your
presentation this evening and again
congratulations on your new position at
mag um you've been great to listen to
and to work with and Audra thank you for
being here tonight and Ed zerker of
course as always great to see you we
appreciate you coming out and and thank
you to the council for being so engaged
and asking so many really great
questions this was a great topic and I
thought it was important to bring out
because again there's a lot of
misperceptions we're getting those
emails at mag um me as an executive
board member a regional commi Committee
Member and a transportation board member
I get the emails from the residents that
think we are forcing people out of their
cars and that is certainly not true that
is not the case I'm never giving up my
car so um that will you know somebody
will have to take my keys away when I'm
old and gray and can't drive anymore but
that I am not willing to do that would
never mandate that on anybody so thanks
for coming out and joining us this
evening we appreciate you see you soon
I'm
sure okay that finishes our two items
for our study session I will go ahead
and adjourn this meeting and our next
meeting starts at
6:30
e
for