Special Study Session - 10/8/2024 5:00:00 PM

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it's 5:00 pm I'll go ahead and call this
meeting to order if youall like to take
your seats going to remind everyone cons
roric to shut your phones off or to
silence your phones to make it a little
bit more enjoyable for us here for the
next hour or so however long we're going
to be here for this study session it's
October 8th 2024 I'll call this meeting
to order we just have one item on our
study session tonight presentation and
discussion on the meet and confirm
process with Gilbert Fire and excuse me
Gilbert Police and Fire labor
associations who's kicking off tonight
Patrick is that you I thank you mayor
yes mayor members of the council thank
you so tonight is a followup to the
earlier study session we had on this
topic and uh the purpose for tonight is
to provide um the answers to the
questions that were provided to staff
and the labor associations and then
answer any additional questions you may
have uh that comes up as part of our
dialogue first up I'll have uh Shay come
up from uh Gilbert Fire and he's got a
short presentation he's going to walk
you through we also have Dakota present
from uh gpla that is here he does not
have a presentation but he's happy to
answer any questions you may have for
him and then when they're done we will
have we'll start off with Nathan
Williams have him come up and walk
through some of the demographic data and
then roll right into additional
discussion and uh presentations from
Kelly and our two
chiefs okay I hope I'm going to say this
out loud I hope the presentations are
minimal so that we can actually get a
chance to answer question ask and have
questions answer tonight that's my goal
okay just saying it you look nice in
your second suit Shay thank you very
much two meetings in a row I appreciate
you being so dressed up I'm going to I'm
going to confess something I'm actually
wearing jeans I don't think I've ever
done that for a council meeting before
because I don't think it's appropriate
but it's one item for a study session so
thank you for being here and it's all
yours well thank you guys for having me
um this is obviously an incredibly
important topic for us so the
presentation that I have is really not
going to focus so much as to the answers
to the questions because I believe we
really dove into those in in the
business case that I presented to you
guys last week um but my presentation
are is just a short um uh essentially
talking about some of the points that we
weren't able to uh bring back up because
of we ran out of time so um some of the
topics that we discussed in the last um
study session but um some of the items I
want to address uh kind of starting out
with some of the things that the people
team presented um we talked about
post-retirement
benefits um I think there's an
assumption that there's going to be an
ask in a meet and confer process for
post-retirement coverage and I don't
think that's an appropriate assumption I
think the the idea of post-retirement
benefits um is is wonderful um but there
is needs to be an actual interest-based
discussion as to what that actually
looks like um there are currently
municipalities that offer basically just
C coverage or maintaining their current
level of uh health care when they retire
they're able to continue that at no
additional cost um but there's a lot of
other options out there that can come at
very little cost to the town but also
come out of our own pocket so that we
also have the the abil like a healthcare
trust M basically Healthcare trust
matching is an option um but I just want
to be clear that um there's a there was
a big number thrown out there that you
know post-retirement benefits and that's
that's not really our ask we know how
much that can cost and that's not super
realistic in our mind um but without
being able to have that discussion um
you guys wouldn't know that so um for uh
the townwide benefits there there were
four added townwide benefits that um
Nathan spoke on last time these four
accomplishments that that they talked
about were paid parental leave babies at
work catastrophic injury leave and
enhanced military leave now two of these
topics have zero benefit for the 56-hour
employee for the firefighter in the
street or the police officer in the
street um babies at work I have a
20-month-old I've never been able to
bring him to work on a fir Tru um that
it's it's a wonderful benefit that the
town has I think it's an incredible
offer that that we have but it doesn't
apply to us it's not a benefit that we
can use um and then enhanced military
leave uh in theory it sounds great but
again it doesn't apply to a it's
insufficient for a 56-hour employee with
without um the the the coverage that we
have right now for military leave is
designed for 9 to5 Monday through
Thursday employees when you have a
56-hour employee who has um Reserve
duties on the weekends well they're now
taking 48 Hours of their military leave
and burning it in one fail Chunk in one
weekend and that happens often um my own
engineer on my own truck had to take 90
hours of leave without pay last year
from because he ran out of it Military
Bank um and it just doesn't apply to
56-hour employees so um he also tried he
I don't know exactly what his vacation
hours but he burned vacation hours and
then he was uh denied the opportunity to
use sick leave to cover his military
leave so um half the points that were
brought up just don't apply to us and I
think this validates the point that um a
meet and confer process allows us to
have a seat at the table to explain
these benefits that don't apply um you
know that
we want to talk about team Gilbert um
but these benefits don't apply to us
we're left out of Team Gilbert in this
sense so um only validates our Point as
to why meet and confer is so important
because our unique our our needs are
very
unique um the town accomplishments
without
anou um I I would have to bet that uh
the town's going to talk about a lot of
different accomplishments that we've
been able to do over the last few years
um and they're all going to be great I
know that um this organization really is
a wonderful place but the reality is is
a lot of these have nothing to do with
anou the positions the facilities
operations all of accomplishments in
those categories have nothing to do with
anou so the success from anou comes from
the fact that it has zero impact on our
director's uh strategic plan the there's
there's I think this um fear that if we
get into a meet and confer process it's
going to derail whatever the goals are
of our fire directors or of our excuse
me Department directors um but that's
absolutely not the case if anything this
frees their time um it takes the Target
off of them and allows us to have a say
and puts the responsibility frankly on
labor um in a meet and confer process so
it does not affect a fire chief's
strategic plan it in fact encourages
their strategic plan and and takes
weight off of them to focus on
that um and then the last part is the
the dangerous unique to respond First
Responders um there was a quote that um
was was talked about Solid Waste
collectors being listed as one of the
most dangerous jobs and I know where the
data comes from I I get it but it's a
little bit demeaning to the profession
that we have because I work with Heroes
every day everyday real life Heroes
people putting their lives on the line
and I I just think the the the quote is
is the data is misleading let me put it
that way um we agree that work working
in the streets is dangerous it's
something we both do every day we just
have more warning lights but if we're
going to look at the statistics um this
came out of a 2018 us Bureau of Labor
Statistics where they ranked waste
collection as in the top 10 most
dangerous jobs in that same year the
solid waste association of North America
reported 50 work-related fatalities 50
while on the job fatalities may be
higher it does not mean the risk is
higher the daily risk of firefighters
and law enfor law Enforcement Officers
is code three driving one of the most
dangerous things we do and we do it
every time we leave the station um
responding to unstable amount of health
patients entering into people's homes
entering into idlh environments uh
immediate danger to life and health
environments that's that's our job
that's what we do every day and then not
to mention first responder PTSD and
suicide the data that's not included in
this um you know ranking is in 2019
there were reported
234 on first man offer suicides
234 in 2019 to 2023 there was a reported
100 to 200 firefighter suicides and
really there's a a a need to focus on
the data collection on that point um
because it just doesn't exist right now
um and then not to mention cancer uh
firefighters have a 14% higher chance of
chancing of catching cancer um than the
general population and the areas that we
have increased exposure are in these IDE
environments our Hazmat teams our
firefighting Foams our diesel fuels
Vapor Barrier clothing uh our turnouts
and sleep deprivation we face all of
those every single day um we are making
strides as an organization to um reduce
our cancer risk but we need to be
better uh and then the last data point
here is that in in 2021 waste collection
workers totaled 79,000 employees
Nationwide approximately 75% of those
employees had a work-related injury or
illness so that's about 59,000 injuries
the US and fire Administration in 2020
reported
23,753 of our call volume and fire has
roughly 40% of the reported injuries as
waste collection in only 25% of our
hazardous work
environment moving on uh we talk about
some of the fire department Act
accomplishments we had sworn topout pay
expanded cancer screening increased
vacation Max and
4896 um sworn topout pay was was a
really great benefit and and really a
morale booster so that was a great thing
um expanded cancer screening uh again
this is an area where we just need to be
better um we have made strides but we
can do better um the fire department had
one cancer claim that is has already
been uh taken effect that was $2 million
and we have two more coming um two guys
that are are finishing treatment right
now or or just finishing um so that's
that's a pretty large number and and the
enhanced screening that we have none of
those cancers were found in our
physicals um we need to do better it's
it's not a problem we have tools and the
tools are great and we're grateful for
them but we need to be better and a seat
at the table will allow us to discuss
some of the benefits of certain types of
uh tests and other
resources um 4896 was a huge
accomplishment for us as organ
oranization and the town um and and the
people in the streets we we feel it the
the data was there for us to move to it
and and it's been a wonderful thing um
and the reality is is the the very steps
and principles that we use to come to
this conclusion are the very same things
that we would use in a meet and confer
process it was a committee that spent a
year developing a proposal and we
presented that proposal to town
management and ultimately that was
accepted those are the very same
principles that meet and confer will
bring um only the workload is done by
labor for for essentially every Point um
and again the mou doesn't affect the
director's strategic plan I do know that
the 4896 was part of Chief duin's
strategic plan coming into fire chief
and because of the collaborative process
that we put forward it was successful
and theou can offer
that um additional organizations withou
within our own Community we have the
Gilbert public schools and then
nationally Commission of fire
accreditation International uh this is
the board that was in town last week
that we were presenting to um to receive
our accreditation accolades the very
board that we are trying to appeal to to
represent how great this organization is
they have anou with the I and that says
to have Labor involvement um the reason
why they have an i or anou is because we
know it is an effective
process and lastly sustainability um
employee turnover we need a process in
place that outlasts our
employees in the last two years in HR
we've had four different business
partners in two years we've had four
different business partners and that's
such a vital position um of
communication and and they cover so many
areas so um that's a big detriment to us
and without anou without me confer
without a contract we have to start over
every time with every employee and
explain how we do things the department
directors have to explain how we do
things and they come in with their own
lens and all of those things are great
but if we have a process it spells out
exactly where we need to move forward
and it saves the time and the money and
the resources to starting over every
single time um economic stability again
we're saving money through having a
process already established um for the
town uh we have extremely difficult
decisions coming in the very near future
um this is an opportunity to allow labor
to share the responsibility of these
very tough financial
decisions revenue streams are decreasing
and we just just want to have the
opportunity to have a seat at the table
to how do we address these issues how
can the town save money and where are
the processes that we can
fix uh the flsa litigation is a good U
um evidence of of having a process where
had we had the opportunity to sit down
at the table and discuss some of the
issues that we had major concern with um
you know long ways down the road it
eventually led to litigation and that is
not my goal ever um I I want this town
to be cooperative and collaborative and
for the most part we get that U but this
is a now a litigation that's on the
table that can and will be very
expensive for the town um no matter who
wins it's going to be expensive there's
a lot of resources that get stuck into
it uh increasing morale this is
obviously one of the biggest boosters of
us is giving us a seat at the table is a
huge morale booster um it gives us the
shared responsibility and increases
Employee Engagement um and again takes
the Target off of our fire director puts
the responsibility on our own
shoulders supporting administrative
staff that workload obligation now
transitions to the labor workforce so
there's another Financial cost benefit
um the workload now uh talks about or in
the business case talks about we present
our proposal and now the town all they
have to do is verify um the the work the
research the communication with other
organizations all of those things happen
from the workload and the committee that
we put together at no cost to the town
and then it supports the directors by
allowing them to focus on their
strategic plan and removes them from the
negative dialogue and Target um that
they they have right now without the
process and then good faith discussion
decrease the need to bring items to
councel um there our uh abilities to um
with theou process it reduces the
necessity for us to go to council
members for issues or problems um this
allows us to meet with the town and
discuss it over good faith interest
based negot uh negotiations and then at
the end of it um the town has to approve
it within that process and then it comes
to the Town Council um and it prevent in
that process you actually are not
allowed to uh bring items to council
neither is is management um to to sway
things so this actually prevents uh the
drama that could be brought to you guys
um and then it opens transparency and
understanding for both
parties uh in summary this is meet
confer again is built on communication
accountability and collaboration it's
interest based negotiations it increases
transparency and understanding and is
not collective bargaining strikes and
job slowdowns are strictly prohibited
which gives us stability meet and confer
has a proven track record of positive
results and the training and preparation
is provided at no cost to the town so
the question was posed what are we
currently doing wrong
and there are problems in the
organization that can be addressed with
anou but more importantly this
organization this town the staff is
incredible and meet and confer gives us
the opportunity to build on that the
question isn't why should we have anou
the question is why would we not why
would we prevent a process that improves
transparency accountability Mutual
understanding and increased morale your
guys's job your job your job are all
getting harder and tough decisions are
needing to happen now give us the
opportunity to share the responsibility
in those tough
decisions and with that that's all I
have I appreciate it thanks Shay any
questions for Shay at this
time Council m torguson one of the
things I really wanted to hear and
you're not saying it what are you not
getting now that you had before what is
the motivation saving money it sounds
great but I know that that the town
manager everybody wants to save money
sure I I I can't imagine they're saying
oh let's spend more money by not doing
this yeah I want to hear what's wrong
right now that's that would be the
motivating factor to say oh we save you
money you're not saving this money
that's disenchant come on because you
think he wants to spend more money I
don't think he wants to spend I don't
want to spend more money if it's cheaper
it's great you show me there I'm say I
want to know what's not happening what's
not being heard what is the issue that's
motivating this to come that's important
yeah and it's real hopefully yeah so can
you verbalize what is it that we need to
be looking at because to take the
position we should be given the chance
it's great I understand but it's not as
important as the why the why is
everything in this and I need to hear
the why sure yeah and it's a good point
I mean the reality is I don't believe
it's disingenuous at all to say that
theou is an opportunity to save money
because it truly is um the last mou
process there was no Financial impact um
until the later years and for us with an
muu coming forward now at this
particular time um with our budgets
being tight um it now is the opportunity
to do theou because it increases the
ability for us to have a say in what
these tough decisions are going to be so
what what's wrong is we have a
department director that can't really
stick up for our employees because they
have a strategic plan and they don't
really have the ability to discuss wages
benefits things like that um the the
people team does things that don't apply
to 56-hour employees and touts them as
benefits but we don't get a lot of those
benefits we get other things sure but
they're different very different in fact
our our pensions are only going down
tier 3 members have caps I won't go into
details for that but um there are issues
that we do not get we do not have benef
or the same benefits as team Gilbert um
and then when we're communicating with
the town while that is an extremely
important part of our relationship
building and Trust um there's no
requirement on action on their end so
what's happening often is that it's
we'll check in with it we'll look into
it um but we don't get a lot out of that
um and that is our if we have we have a
seat at the table now but it doesn't
mean that there's action on the other
end andou gives us uh the accountability
from town management and ourselves to
have action at the end of
it vice
mayor thank you shay for your
presentation um one thing that you did
point out in the report that you sent to
us were were some issues such as Court
pay standby call call out compensation
shift differentials week
Duties are these not discussed with
management now um vice mayor yeah I'll
defer that to Dakota Dakota is the
president of gpla um but when he comes
up and if you guys have questions for PD
specifically and PD labor um he'll be
able to address those those issues
specifically you I I hear you shay I
just want to make a point sure there are
benefits for the employees that don't
benefit the rest of us I don't take any
of the benefits from the town of Gilbert
cuz I don't want to cost anybody any
extra money but we have a nursing room
for moms I'm not going to begrudge
anybody that wants to use a nursing room
for moms I'm never going to use it the
male carts on here are not going to use
that um so they think that when it comes
to PD and fire I understand that you
have different needs but I want to hear
what those needs are that aren't being
met and I think it was kind of what
council member Ton's question was sure
um and I know council member tilki had
asked that question s pointed above
because she's virtual she joined us
virtually um so I want to hear something
and you just said we talked to
management we asked them for things
we'll go look into it I have a seat at
the table and I don't feel like I get my
way either MH
um I see you on that but what is
something
specific that you can point to that
police Andor
Fire have not been able to achieve that
we can actually look at that's a real
substantial issue sure um yeah so more
specifically some of the things that we
would look at um vacation buyback I
talked about in the report um there's an
opportunity for uh employees to get
vacation bought back um over a certain
threshold um that's an opportunity like
I I talked about in the report is that's
a a town saving Financial opportunity um
it it's a benefit for the employee and
it's a benefit for the employer because
now they're not paying two and a half
for that employee um that's a benefit
and that should be talked about in a
meet and confer process but it we it's
been talked about and no action has ever
been taken um payroll deductions this
one is is really simple because um it
was just an opportunity the the town had
limited the amount of payroll deductions
that could happen but people want to be
able to put their money in different
places and if we don't have a payroll
department that allows us to do that um
I don't quite understand what what the
the job is apparently we have new
systems coming in into place and so we
asked about it in the last uh quarterly
meeting and and we haven't heard
anything back um but again we want to be
able to use uh payroll deductions from
from our own money to put in either it's
our 457 um our our employee association
dues um our our charity funds that we
want to put into but we can't because
we're limited so that's a process that
can come out of the M um promotional
processes there's uh some some issues
with um management kind of um stepping
in and making decisions that weren't a
part of the labor management process
that we built um and we don't believe
that that's appropriate we believe that
there was a management component and a
labor labor component that built our
promotional process and the list that
was produced out of that process should
have remained and it didn't and I don't
believe that that's appropriate either
um transparency with annual surveys um
we don't get the whole package of what
these surveys said I know there were a
lot of um particular inputs on a
particular subject that that did not
appear in the report back that we got to
us um but we don't have the transparency
to see the whole survey results that
would be something that can come out of
a meet and
confer um there's a lot of different
kind of random benefits where there's an
opportunity to work for work overtime
for vacation hours in Li of pay um just
something that's kind of out of the box
thinking that some departments do um
Healthcare trust matching is a huge one
that is an opportunity where we can have
some form of post-retirement benefit um
and it requires us to put in our money
on our end in order for the town to
match it um Zer doar mean zero dollars
but if we put in whatever the max would
be from my own end the town could match
that there's our our postretirement
benefits um and then the big one is
Raising class in compensation um if
there is a financial cost here and we
know that but if we want to continue to
be able to recruit the best people in
the valley we need to pay better than
what we do now right now we're paid
lower than half the valley um we are the
lower we always get set back to that
50th percentile and then a week later
the next department does their raises or
their class in comp um and now we're
paid worse than half the valley um and
that is a very simple hourly wage that
most employees particularly young
employees look at they they don't always
look at the entire benefit package they
can look at an hourly wage or a salary
and say well that's that's not enough
that's not you know I can make $10,000
more dollars if I go to the city City
next door so those are some of the
things that we would like to bring up in
anou process thank you for the actual
item you're welcome I appreciate it yeah
Council banani thank you mayor um sh let
me see if I understand this correctly um
you you mentioned in your in your speech
here about
um if we do not have
anou that you guys can meet directly
with us and discuss issues
um it's my understanding right now we
have
noou
correct do you know and I'm not going to
ask you directly but do you know of any
employees that have been
admonished for speaking directly to any
council member up
here if you want me to answer that
question the answer is yes um it it it
was an unfortunate circumstance where
where um there was a mutual
understanding between U myself and and
council member and um you know we we got
to a point where we had common ground
and and that was tough to get to that
point but that's what interest based
negotiations or or interest based
discussions are um and we finally got to
that point and I understood where this
council member was coming from where I
was coming from and the response that we
got from town management was that we
went around the labor management process
um and it was it was unfortunate because
we we as an association we are a
political organization that there's no
way of getting around that um but more
importantly I'm bringing items to
council because I have concern and care
for my employees um and if we can't do
that
then what am I here for so with anou
that wouldn't be allowed but it's
allowed now it is allowed now correct
yeah and people were still admonished
for it correct and with anou process it
actually prevents or forbids rather is
probably the better word for um any
labor Association or employee group to
bring items to council to try to sway
them in anticipation for the approval of
theou right thank you you're
welcome council member Tuson so it was
actually you were participating in the
way it's supposed to be without anou and
admonished as though there was
anou I would consider that a correct
portrayal thank you
any other questions at this time um
council member tilki council member
Kowski I'll wait mayor thank you okay
Shay thank you thank you all very
much reserving the right to call you
back at any time
okay next up Patrick okay thank you
mayor I'll ask Nathan Williams to come
up and he will walk through this
presentation runs uh along the vice
mayri had a question for PD uh vice
mayor Kowski has a question for PD Vice
May Anderson had a question for vice
mayor Anderson had a question for
PD oh you did do you want Dakota to come
up and answer that or do you want to
wait and okay thank you thanks Dakota
okay Nathan you're up okay and Nathan's
gonna run through again the this
presentation just runs along the lines
of the questions that were asked so
it'll be Nathan Kelly F and our two
Chiefs and then we'll open it up for any
additional questions or dialogue you may
like to have thank you thank you Patrick
mayor Peters and members of council
thank you um for the
opportunity um just to clarify um our
town manager told me I could dress more
casually and then sheay outdid me with
his suit tonight so um you know I'm I'm
nothing but regrets at this point he has
one uped us all
tonight um I I wanted to first off I I
want to thank um and continue to thank
um Shay and and Dakota and and members
of both our um police and fire uh labor
associations and and our overall
Workforce for their continued work um on
this I know it is no easy task I know
that um they
are probably um this probably creates a
lot of nerves it does for me and and i'
I think I've had to do this a few more
times than than Shay has but he he does
a great job and and represents his
Association and and his co-workers well
um I do want to take a moment to address
a few things that he brought up because
I think uh you know as he mentioned we
ran ran short last time and and he
brought up some great um some great
points in response to some of the items
that were shared I I want to first off
um he he mentioned I I I may be
misquoting but I think the gist is still
there that he mentioned uh babies at
work as unusable for sworn um this is a
a program we've been very proud of here
in Gilbert for the past five or more
years um the opportunity or I think
actually more six or seven years um as I
mentioned in the presentation this has
had National Renown there's been a lot
of cities that have made an effort to
mimic or or um uh create a program
similar and we're excited to announce
actually we have a we have a firefighter
that's participating currently we've had
a number of police officers who have
also been able to participate in this
program and we certainly recognize that
the nature of um the schedule the field
assignments um the work that many of our
First Responders and many of our
employees across our Workforce May um be
involved in may make it difficult to
participate in some of these programs um
however um I I do think that our Chiefs
within police and fire and our directors
across our departments make every
possible effort to accommodate um and
allow for employees to take advantage of
any benefit program that we offer for
the town the other mention was the uh
military uh leave program as I mentioned
in my presentation we have an expanded
supplemental military leave program that
is far above and beyond what the federal
government mandates employers to provide
um and as I mentioned in my presentation
this is most utilized by our sworn
personnel because that tends to be where
our highest percentage of um active and
former military members uh are employed
within the town and so we are again very
proud that they've been able to
participate in this program next next I
want to mention the the the difficulties
and the danger of the job um I certainly
did not mean to demean our First
Responders um when I talked about the
solid waste operator position being one
of the more dangerous positions in the
country Shay is absolutely right and and
I have the utmost respect and I think
our organization has the most utmost
respect for what our First Responders do
um how they put their lives on the line
um the danger and harm that can befall
them um in in the variety of ways um
that they carry out their duties each
day and I think our Chiefs will do a
great job of presenting how we've
invested and put time and energy and a
lot of resources um into being mindful
of that um and doing everything in our
power to support and help so without
further Ado I will uh I'll jump into a
few talking points and as a reminder um
we have several slides here we're going
to try to be brief um and concise per
marriage request um as a reminder these
slides are representative of us
responding to the questions that that
were asked um by council member Tikki
and so we just wanted to put them on the
screen because we know that's a little
easier when we're throwing a bunch of
numbers around to digest than than just
giving them to you so um first off I
want to talk a little bit about
demographics um this was a request that
was made again so that's that's why we
brought this information to all of you
um but I've I've kind of put in some red
boxes there to highlight a few key
points that I think I would call
attention to which is if you start with
the town of Gilbert overall this is our
entire resident population keeping in
mind we recognize the number may not be
perfectly representative because this is
based on 2020 Census Data um a thing I'd
call out there is if you look at our 30
to 49 age group um those numbers add up
to about 40% of our overall population
and then if you look at the male female
distribution um for our community it's
about split right so then town of
Gilbert employees overall again oh I
didn't put my box in the right place on
that one I apologize but if you look at
the 30 uh to 49 group that represents
about 60% of our Workforce so that does
um speak to what we discussed that we
are we are nearing retirement
eligibility and age for a lot of our
Workforce and that's something we are
paying very close attention to you can
also see that townwide across our 1600
plus employee population we've got a
distribution of about 71% male 28%
female if you look at our sworn
population um within PD and fire again
these are I'm presenting these numbers
because they were requested uh that 30
to 49 age group represents um about 62%
for fire um and that is a a demographic
that's about 94% male uh a little over
5% female and then our police represents
or that's about a 70% chunk of the
population in that age group um with
about 89% male 10%
female um then just a couple other
things again based on the the requests
that were made Academy completions these
are these are since our Public Safety
Training Facility has opened you can see
down at the bottom there that we've had
about 51 graduate from our fire academy
classes um and about 56 um graduate from
our PD Academy classes
so sorry I'm I'm going quickly just
because I want to make sure I give
plenty of time for question and and
comment um I'll turn your attention on
this one for for PD and fire department
growth kind of just to the bottom of the
table don't don't get I wouldn't worry
about all the numbers in front of you
there but if you look at the bottom um
we've added about 100 um positions
overall to our fire department since
2013 um which is about a 50% Department
growth we've added 155 positions to our
Police Department representing about 45%
uh Department growth so again a lot of
attention a lot of resources um
allocated into these departments and I
think I'm going to be turning it over to
Kelly F to take you through some of the
complicated numbers I don't
understand nope these are pretty simple
straightforward ones thank you Nathan um
couple pieces of information that give
background on the budget side so this
one talks about all of the departments
in the general fund which is where a
bulk of our tax investment goes fire is
about 21% of that police about 37% and
then all of the other departments legal
it HR any of those support departments
are the other 42% so a bulk of the
investment um from the town's tax
dollars goes to our police and fire
departments uh since 2018 this is a
breakdown of the new budget requests
that have been approved through the
budget process uh the ongoing and orange
and the one time in blue it adds up if
you just add the total dollar amounts
about $19 million over those course of
years this one's for
fire also about $19 million over the
course of years for police um but with
the ongoing money You remake that
investment once you approve it every
year after that you continue to make
that investment so total dollar amount
of investment just for the new thing
since fiscal year 2018 is $95 million of
investment of town money towards police
and fire additional in those years um so
a great amount of investment into our
Public Safety with that I'll turn it
over to Chief for some more
information thank
you mayor council uh Mike sward G police
chief as Kelly just mentioned uh
investments in public safety uh I've
been with the Department just over seven
years about 7 and a half years now and
when I first got here we were just
starting you had been working for about
8 to 10 years on a public safety
training facility I had the pleasure of
stepping right into that when I started
here and that is continued uh throughout
the seven plus years that I've been here
uh our Public Safety Training Facility
was instrumental as we talked about the
growth and we talked about the attrition
that we saw the forecast of what was
coming and knowing that that was being
compounded by uh influence outside of
our department withies both PD and fire
and resources available for training so
the town and Council uh and management
working together to get make sure that
that was brought forth to the community
for a vote and we did have a great
partnership in uh with labor in
educating our voters of the need for
that facility and that has continued on
to our Public Safety Dispatch Center and
also uh what we recently finished with
our primary Emergency Operations Center
those combined over $90 million of
investments in public safety for our
community investing in our First
Responders again again in addition to
the buildings the CIP projects that
we've done and those that we're looking
at uh this provides you with an overview
uh just over just short of $25 million
of Investments not only in Personnel but
in technology equipment and the majority
we pulled out this isn't everything this
is everything that we identified that
was geared towards the safety of our
firefighters and our uh police officers
everything from ballistic Shields
ballistic panels in our cars uh improved
technology our radios our peer support
uh additional positions Wellness our our
Kine our uh our peer support K9 that
we've had two now fire has one as well
so these are investments we have made
not only in our people but in technology
and equipment to make sure that they are
safe and some of these also benefit our
um our professional staff as well as our
sworn
applications Rob
yes thanks Mike uh thank you mayor
council uh we got asked to uh provide
some information and data regarding
applicant trendings over the last year
going back to 2018 uh the pre-pandemic
numbers on where applicant pools were so
this chart shows uh where roughly we
were in 2018 before the pandemic
affected uh the applicant pools um and
you can see the numbers in there as we
start to get to 20 2021 2022 there's a
reduction of the number of applicants
for both PD and fire uh there's a lot of
concern across the valley on the cause
of this on the fire side uh one of the
issues we had during the pandemic was
the community colleges halt production
of their EMT classes that was one of our
primary uh pipeline of talent of
applicants was that those EMT programs
they've reinstituted those which is part
of the reason we're seeing some of the
uptick again and reaching out to the the
valley Partners uh every agency is
seeing a reduction both PD and fire and
the number of applicants I am happy to
report in 2024 we're starting to see
Gilbert's number starting to increase
not every agency has seen that yet uh in
part we've had some kind of preemptive
um measure meur es to try to get those
numbers increased as far as how we're
trying to contact our applicants
reaching those applicants uh We've
instituted our fire cadet program we're
very proud of this program it's a
volunteer program of the initial 24 uh
12 were offered positions in Valley acmy
currently our Academy has five of our
Gilbert Cadets in that program so that's
part of what we're doing to be able to
increase the talent of uh and number of
applicants uh Shay mentioned the 4896
schedule we're anticipating being able
to recruit from a larger geographic
region as a result of that schedule
change uh that was supported by labor
and labor was a part of that very
important study that we've red Town
manager's office uh through the process
um I also want to point it included uh
on the correspondents other the um
answers to the questions Kathy tilky
asked we also included Arizona border of
regent research um project that was done
uh the the border of regions recognized
concerns with psprs related to retention
and recruitment uh so they took about a
year and a half study across the whole
state trying to evaluate what is
happening are there any issues concerns
and opportunities with recruiting uh for
police and fire uh you have copies of
those or a link to those reports there's
an executive summary that offers a
pretty impactful uh review of their
findings and what those findings
revealed uh is that across the state um
every agency is dealing with reduction
in numbers um of applicants um and why
what kind of rtion we're seeing for the
most part retention is good uh there's
not a lot of lateral movement certainly
in the fire department I I can't speak
directly um to PD but generally um we
don't hire laterals in the fire
department uh we are committed uh to
promoting within our organization and we
are instituting uh numerous programs uh
to be able to promote from within uh
things like pre paramedic programs C
captains engineerm all these things
we're doing to prep our people so that
they're ready for promotion when the
time comes but this just talks a little
bit about the numbers what we're seeing
but again I would refer you to the
Arizona border region report for a
pretty detailed listing of their
findings on what's Happening across the
state and what the opportunities are
related to
that uh we were also asked to provide
historical data going back to 2020 on
hires and separation uh this chart just
kind of outlines uh the comings and
goings so to speak within PD and uh and
fire and I just note a noteworthy
numbers departments are still continuing
to grow and what we'll notice uh
predominantly is that we still have more
people coming to work for the Gilbert
Fire Department and police departments
than those that are separating uh
whether through retirement or other
means so this just kind of highlights
those numbers there that we were asked
to provide but again I would like to
highlight that we still have a increase
in number of applicants interested in
working for both Gilbert PD and
fire uh this last side we're asked to
provide shows uh the difference in
costing um through the years which me we
were asked to provide from fiscal year
13 uh to reference this slide we utilize
the maximum step as our anchor uh to
make the math as easy as possible so
this is the basically the highest steps
for each position in fy13 and current
and it shows the increase in percentage
it is important to note that uh PD's
most recent class in comp which will go
into effect the middle of October um is
included in these numbers so that is
reflective of the pay that will go into
effect uh I believe on October 14th uh
with the slide doesn't show is that the
steps in subsequent years uh for for
sworn members is 5% so during these if
and conceivably if you weren't topped
out each firefighter police officer
would for their pay for performance
would get an additional 5% until they
hit the top of the pay range a little
different system than the pay for
performance uh for our civilian
staff uh this is a very long quote um
it's relevant recently I kind of
highlight this this was from our uh Shay
mentioned this Center for Public Safety
Excellence they were out doing their
site visit um and great group of people
came and looked at our facilities talked
to a lot of our members and leaders in
the department a labor group Shay got to
meet with the uh with the PE assessor as
well and I know was rewarding for him so
just to kind of highlight some of the
positives uh the lead assessor for this
or uh for the cpsc that handled our
assessment has done over 36 of these and
as you can see the words on here
basically highlight sometimes we live in
bubble this is my you know kind of
commentary on this and we don't always
kind of see us for ourselves and we lack
perspective CU maybe we haven't seen
what else is out there um and it was
really refreshing to see that this is a
group of professionals that travels
across the country evaluates departments
um in a very data driven way U looks at
fire stations looks at apparatus talks
to the division manager responsible for
running their divisions and had glowing
recommendations based upon our apparatus
equipment being St of the art but also
noticing that the Gilbert Fire
Department team represented that and
appreciated that everyone they talked to
was appreciative of the commitment this
Council has shown over the years so this
is just kind of a a nice thing to see
it's relevant and current that we have
that sometimes it's nice to get some
outside perspective from someone that's
impartial to tell you you know what your
group's doing pretty good you got great
facilities great support from Council
great town management great employees
doing a good job every day so this was
just a nice recent attaboy that we we
thought we'd kind of finish up the
presentation for to kind of highlight
the great work that our labor group does
every day in the field 24/7 with that uh
all of our presentation I hope it was
brief enough for you mayor and we'll
take any questions in what order
whatever order uh mayor and Council
decides thanks Chief um Joe is from a
city in Pennsylvania if I'm remembering
correctly so that was quite different
for him to come visit Arizona and all
those members of that team that
accreditation team are all volunteers at
what they're doing they're all
volunteering to come out here and do
that and those be part of that process
any questions at this time for Nathan
the Chiefs
Kelly I mayor I have one for Nathan um
one thing that uh Shay pointed out that
was very important to their organization
was
compensation and we did get some numbers
what I'm interested in knowing because
of what Shay had said that they're
falling behind with our comparative
cities could you tell us a little bit
more about benchmarking are we falling
behind uh compared to the other
communities mayor Peterson uh vice mayor
Anderson members of council I I guess I
guess you that could be a yes or a no
answer the the short answer is no we
Benchmark um every two years we
Benchmark our Police Department one year
and we Benchmark our fire department on
the other year and we do that um
rotating um and every year they are
brought up to Market average um now
certainly I think the way that if if I
were going to answer um in the
affirmative it would be as he mentioned
there are cities that are um that are
making subsequent changes and and
adjustments to how they Benchmark City
of Phoenix being one right they wanted
to lead um have a have a 5% lead over
any other max range um across the valley
Benchmark cities now we recognize that
that was in part in response to the fact
that uh the Phoenix police departments
and fire departments were seeing uh
vacancy rates in the hundreds right and
and they were not able to manage call
volume and and calls for service so um
so I I would say though that my response
to that question would be uh no sir we
are not falling behind we continue to
maintain the midpoint of the market um
as we have been instructed to do by
Council uh mayor if if I might and vice
mayor Anderson when he mentions mid part
of the midpoint of the market what we do
is we take the market and what that
midpoint is and then we go 50% down and
50% up for our starting and our ending
pay and um there are some cities that
will take 60% of the market and then go
from there um that's always a
conversation that um I think we've had
that in the past it's conversation that
we could certainly have at one of our
finance Retreats but when it comes to
our compensation it does not mean that
our employees are paid half as much or
or substantially below their peers in
many cases and and Nathan could provide
follow-up information many cases are
topout pay and and our entry pay is only
a couple thousand dollars off from some
of the highest uh compensation scales in
the in the
region council member Bon gani thank you
mayor uh a couple questions probably the
order should probably go Kelly Chiefs
Kelly and
Nathan Kelly Chiefs Kelly Chiefs if I'm
in the wrong order please please jump in
whatever
um Kelly what was the estimated overtime
expenditures for police and fire last
year
oh I do not know that off top my
head Chief says we were 2.3 short but I
I don't know off top of my head what the
total budget was okay
okay um Chiefs or you know you might
know Kelly um how many sworn PD and fire
positions are open
currently mayor and uh council member
Bon giovan as of today we are at 20
sworn we had 327 sworn and we currently
have 20 vacancies as of today is that
with fire to or just that's ping pleas
Chief Fire changes Daily doesn't it
Chief we have this conversation often
yes uh mayor uh Council we're sitting
about 12 vacancies right now we have 12
uh in the academy and we are currently
interviewing uh to fill the next fall
academy uh with the fulfill fill all the
vacancies total of 20 223 so okay so
let's play um Utopia for a second
if all of those positions were filled
today would our overtime go up or
down I'll I'll take a stab of
that um so longterm overtime should go
down whenever you on board a lot of
employees like that you have the initial
cost uh when we do ourm and I'm speaking
on behalf of PD our recruits aren't
receiving overtime they're sticking to
the 40 hours but in order to present
that Academy training to them and the
actors and all the training time that it
takes we do see an increase in overtime
we do have budget for that this year we
increased by 150,000 because we have
been short in the training so you see
that initial increase in overtime as you
go through the training they graduate
then they go to the field then We
additionally see some overtime from
between the uh field training officer
and the officer in training now is what
we call them as they're learning the job
it doesn't they're not as proficient as
a experienced trainer officer so we do
see an influx of overtime in the next uh
3 months while they're in field training
and then from that point on you should
start to see the decline and so as we've
had es and flows in our hiring we have
seen that where overtime starts to go
down but then as attrition picks back up
and we have vacancies we have to fill
those often with overtime we hire to
replace those we lost that overtime
continues to continue to grow until
those individuals come out of training
which is 9 months later and so then it
starts to come back down so it's
cyclical it comes up it goes down the
other point I was going to add is how
quickly it can change we do have
authorization to overhire by 10 police
officers for PD knowing that it does
take one year roughly for between hiring
and in the academy and field training to
get them solo status and so for I think
it's since 2019 2018 2019 we've been
authorized to over hire by 10 knowing
that we rarely get into that but for
almost a year for most the 23 we were
over hired by
10 now 9 10 months later we're down 20
that's how quickly it can change a year
ago we were fat and happy so to speak we
the everyone was jealous in the in the
valley that quickly changed now we're
kind of in the norm of what the valley
is as opposed to being ahead so it come
abs and flows and with that your
overtime comes and goes as well so do we
have any data about when a uh firemen or
policemen leave do we have any data as
to did they go to another department and
they got paid
more as far as uh someone lateraling
over for pay yeah so we do exit surveys
um recently we've had about three that
have left for other departments one for
out of state two for Valley agencies
that's been a bit of a rarity for us
we've been taking from others as opposed
to uh losing uh individuals usually when
we do lose it's out of state um we like
I said had to recently um and uh but but
normally we're taking from others uh as
Chief dougen mentioned they do not take
laterals on the fire side that is a key
component to our hiring is we every six
months do our Academy and we try to get
15 to 20 in that class but then we still
have to supplement that with laterals we
continue throughout the academy but we
try to uh hire the 15 to 20 for the
academy and in between academies try to
hire another 10 or so so with attrition
um it it again es and flows on the
actual number we have started with seven
in this Academy class we only had five
in the prior one you saw from the
numbers some classes we had up to 25 so
uh laterals it depends on the market
depends on um a lot of things a lot of
our applicants uh that are laterals do
come from out of state um between us and
the other agencies we've kind of
exhausted the internal market for
laterals but we still see it would being
at as we can say average pay
um do you see any benefit as if police
and fire were able to raise the pay if
some these positions would be
filled it's specul speculation I know I
know mayor council it's speculative um
you know what does what does one desire
over the other um a lot of people a lot
of the laterals that we picked up
recently have moved to here um to
Gilbert because they were working in
north of us and they wanted a shorter
commute they were living either in
Gilbert Queen Creek Santan Valley
Maricopa they wanted to short the
commute especially as the cost of living
and gas and everything went up and as
the population grows traffic volume
grows and so we did pick up a lot both
professional staff and sworn that came
to Gilbert because it was closer to home
it was cheaper for them to work here and
as as opposed to where they were
currently at um as was mentioned with
with the pay um one thing that we two
years ago everyone was doing hiring
incentive pay
and that was something we actually put
into the budget we didn't rush into it
lot like a lot of the others but the
feedback I've got from the majority of
the agencies as it hasn't made a
difference in their numbers of
applicants it's good to get money it
actually creates a little bit of
animosity for those who are out on the
street working short staffed every day
and I'm not necessarily talking about
you over we didn't have it um but you're
giving money to someone off the street
that's never worked a day and I'm still
getting the same pay working overtime
having to cover shifts while you Tred to
hire these people so it's a difficult
balance we didn't use our incentive pay
that we created that year for the budget
because we were staying up with our
hiring we found that we did not need to
offer that 10% that we had budgeted for
as that bonus to bring bring them in
because we were still getting
applicants again speculative but do you
do you see uh cities and towns
withus um retaining more police and fire
less um positions open I am mayor
counsel uh I'm not aware of any data or
studies that have shown that okay I
conferred with my hiring a lieutenant
and sergeant if they have ever received
feedback when they're doing a recruiting
events or when they're doing hiring that
someone has um uh not applied with us or
was not that interested in us because we
did not have an mou that's never really
been brought up the majority of our
laterals that come from Phoenix or other
agencies in the valley and back East
that do have anou or an actual contract
back East um that hasn't been an issue
for them to come to leave that and to
come from us at least not that we've
been told or been aware of okay so
overall it's still safe to say that if
those positions were full the town would
save significant money in
overtime sorry can you repeat that I'm
yeah it's just I'm just validate that if
those positions were
full we would save money in
overtime in the long term yes as I
mentioned based on um when we have
vacancies and when we're onboarding
people we do see a tendency to increase
in overtime if we were status quo we
hire those people they're trained and we
don't have that decline that we have to
now replace then we should be able to
maintain our overtime better um the
unknowns of attrition coupled with uh
FMLA military leave on duty injuries
off-duty injuries uh roughly we have
about 10% of our employees at any given
time that're out for one reason or the
other okay one more question a citizen
asked me to to ask this um I didn't know
the answer so let's say um a policeman
is under
investigation for something does
anou actually protect that person that
police officer more less or the same uh
with that investigative um process so
mayor and council member Bon Giovani the
in with police officers there is the
Arizona police officer Bill of Rights
which by Statute dictates what rules we
must follow when doing an internal
investigation on our sworn employees and
so that dictates the rules um an mou you
could have the potential to add
additional rules that both sides agreed
to that we follow the state law and
that's what um we're required to do and
that we and what we do currently and mou
would not change that unless uh it was
agreed upon to add additional rules one
way or the other but we couldn't we
cannot reduce the rights provided by the
po police officer vill rights awesome
thank you appreciate appreciate
time Nathan I'll save one for you later
Chief um overtime is also situational
like we saw this year with teen violence
yes so it's it's a situational situ here
in Gilbert that something that we can't
predict is going to happen correct mayor
it there's a lot of factors that factor
into our overtime we look at our
threeyear averages when we do our zerob
based we try to adjust that based on
those Trends but there are things that
at times are out of our hands thank you
council member torguson one thing is
that uh six weeks ago or so I spoke with
Patrick about overtime police and fire
and he's going to put something together
because it's it's become a very large
large number that's it's palpable when
you read through the budget and I'm
assuming at some point you're going to
bring something back to me and I want to
share it with you because I want to look
at it and see where where we're
something's failing it's a big number
something's failing uh it could be just
new hires it could be a lot of things
but the number is is egregious but I did
want to ask Nathan a couple questions
back
up I just like picking on Nathan so
that's why but you pick on yourself too
so it's easy
right the uh not I'm not sitting there
advocating what a what number something
should be but I think to not hear what
people are saying when they're
benchmarked at the 50% number their 50%
number at that
moment they are never higher than 50% in
fact the minute anybody makes a move
even the lowest guy makes a small move
it puts them under that number so they
are momentarily at 50% they're probably
running 45 to whatever the minute
somebody else comes up that's how
numbers work if you set a number for two
years everybody beneath moves
up you're moving down on the scale your
number's not moving down but your scale
is moving down so I I think there's some
sensitivity needs to be played for that
because you're telling people they're
not seeing what they're actually seeing
and it's like it's not a Jedi mind trake
they're seeing it uh so I'm not going to
Advocate a number for you but I'm saying
that to say that on on is as a numbers
person I look at it and go well that's
not really true you you bounce off that
50% the minute anyone in the valley
makes a change uh you pointed something
out about how police and fire had grown
since 2010 but that doesn't seem to be
in proportion to the
population our FTE per thousand are
lower in police and fire than they were
in 2010 am I not
correct uh mayor council member I'm not
I'm not 100% sure about the number uh
per resident I would I I would trust
your math um I do believe that the
numbers that are set today are based on
a um sort of an officer per resident
number um and that's how those numbers
are budgeted right I just wanted to
point that because we talk about this
growth but we're not talking about the
underlying what it's the foundation that
it's based on and I'm it's not that I'm
unsatisfied with the number of officers
or firemen but to not recognize that
we're doing more with
less mayor council member Tor if I could
ask our Chiefs to come up I don't it's
not that simple in an officer per th000
equation they run some very um
sophisticated uh projections when it
comes to Manpower analysis and needs and
I'd ask each one of them to address how
they approach that mayor council member
torguson uh as mentioned we do have a
complex uh uh system that use called
Corona solutions that uh we help dictate
how many police off officers we have and
that's based on miles per square uh M
miles of Roads number of officers our
population our historical calls for
service there's I can't remember
probably 30 different factors that we
put in there but I'll give you the
example of our very comparable cities by
size Chandler and glendel we're just
slly bigger than both of them depending
on which uh we'll just go with the
numbers you just said we're bigger than
Chandler bigger than Chandler I think by
about 3 ,000 depending on which way you
look and they I believe they're about 40
officers more than us and you look at
glendell which is actually a little bit
smaller than both of us if I remember
their numbers correctly they're about
150 more officers than
us our 2023 crime uh crimes per thousand
I'm going up my memory I believe we're
at
11.2 now with Gilbert uh Chandler was
roughly
18.2 is crimes per thousand glendell if
I remember correctly was around 28 or 30
crimes per thousand so you the stat that
you hear of officers per thousand
there's numerous factors you can't just
use that one in fact there was
legislation a few years ago that
proposed a mandate of meeting that quota
of a certain number of officers per
thousand and it was defeated because
every Community is different every need
is different and the crime is different
the crime and the population dictates
the needs from the police department
department on what those needs are and
so um hopefully that answers your
question where why we don't use that
number and in fact I'd have to do the
math to see where we have 327 officers
so if someone wants to do the math um
we're less we're just under one um
because we're
287,000 population 288,000 maybe 288 290
and and Glend Hill is just so just so
you know we'll we'll just keep bidding
it it's okay I say
28866 because Kevin hary said
8,660 so that would make us a little bit
bigger Glendale is coming in at
255,000 so to put it in perspective what
you're talking about and 150 more
officers they also have a stadium they
have events going on out there events
but my point wasn't that you're that
you're not hiring enough the point is to
put it in
perspective and does sound quaint you
actually sound like an idiot uh Gilbert
is a community Gilbert's still has a a
family feel to it unlike many other
communities it's not it's not where
people get dumped off you know to serve
in a halfway house it's that's that's a
and it's a great reason why we have
fewer officers per thousand if you
wanted to look it that way but we have
less crime because it's still a
community it's still family driven in
that way so I wasn't trying to criticize
the number but I was trying to bring
some some light to how that balances
when you're bringing up we've hired 23%
more have our population doubled yeah uh
so uh in
perspective it's a lot and that's also
goes back to the other side of it do you
got do people not
see that we don't have the the officers
maybe don't have the same tough work
environment in some areas that that do
uh but it's it's it's looking at the
other side of it uh I think that that
has to be pointed out and I did say
you're doing more with less yeah I think
that was actually like a kind of a
compliment I mean you know I mean it
wasn't a bad thing to say I don't think
so and we're always doing open to doing
more with
more but obviously that's uh dependent
upon the budget um we have a lot of
needs and uh you you are correct for the
size of our a quart over a quarter
million people 327 officers is a low
number we are a very safe community um
we could always use more um but we our
community is the reason why we are so
safe because of who they are and how
they participate in keeping our crime
low can I also add that a high
percentage of our officers live in our
town and a high percentage of officers
from surrounding communities live in our
town so that helps with keeping us safe
Chief dougen yeah mayor you can't throw
a very softball at anyone around here
without bouncing off of a firefighter or
a police officer for that firefighters
too same same case so many fire figh
from other cities that live in gilber
absolutely mayor council M Tor just want
to highlight uh the fire department's
driving numbers now is called volume
that's our key indicator of of
additional units uh in the field um so
that's kind of our key driver early in
Gilbert's development in early 2000s uh
the expansion if you look at the
population compared to Personnel it was
a fairly even graph because it was where
the population was going when Gilbert
built if we remember station 11 on the
far south side of rigs Road uh was about
our 7eventh Station built uh because
that's where the population went so we
had to be within that 4 minutes 40c
response time uh right now our key
driver is is a number of calls total uh
we try to get relief to stations at
about 3,000 calls per year and we try
not to go automatic a generally wants to
keep units below 3,500 calls in a year
reason for that is when you start to
approach 33500 calls call times response
times degrade so you're going to see an
increase in response times to those
areas fatigue on the crews as well uh by
running that many calls so that's our
key indicator uh we have a five-year
plan that addresses deployment of this
currently uh we have on the books within
our Five-Year Plan within next year or
two to deploy our next adaptive Response
Unit which is 13 positions operating out
of an engine we have ordered that engine
uh unfortunately Supply Chains It's
still going to take us a bit before that
engine is completed uh but essentially
what we do is we evaluate we typically
historically would evaluate about 5%
increase in call volume annually that
held true for probably about the last 10
12 years taking out the covid year um
right now last year between 22 and 23 we
saw that about a 3% increase this year
we're actually trending to have about a
2 and a half 2.4% reduction in call
volume uh so we'll continue to follow
that we want to make sure we deploy our
assets to get relief for our crew but
it's all driven on pretty much um the
response numbers and how many calls are
run and we also tracking response times
of those agencies so that's generally
our driving factor for adding resources
in the
field no follow-up comment
no council members tilky and Kowski any
comments questions at this time
did we lose them
Judy um mayor I'm here I think council
member capros is trying to get on but I
don't think we could hear
her thank you do you have anything
council member
tilki um I can go ahead while we figure
that out thank you mayor can you hear me
okay yes ma'am perfectly okay thanks um
first I just want to apologize for
having to call in this trip was
scheduled when the council asked for the
study session and I didn't want to say
no to the study session
um I'm I appreciate that we're having
this conversation and in the public and
you know my hope is that we can put it
this to rest and move on after tonight
um I want to thank Dakota and Shay for
meeting with me and I just wanted to
note that they are true gentlemen
professionals and very kind and it's
evident that they care about our
community
and doing what's best for their members
and I I really appreciated we spent
quite a bit of time talking through a
lot of the issues that um that they
responded to
um I don't really have any questions and
so I don't want to get ahead of myself I
mean I have some suggestions of what we
could be doing but I don't know if this
is the right time there okay thank you
appreciate it thanks for the comments
did council member Koski was she able
ble to get on Judy do you mayor Peterson
she did unmute but I didn't hear
anything so um trying to kind of
troubleshoot and see is she on teams
with you would she be able to maybe even
type a question to you possibly if she's
connected mayor excuse me um uh I just
got a a a text from council member Capri
she doesn't have any questions as
they've all been asked and answered at
this time thank you thank you for
translating for us council member telkki
appreciate it I don't have teams open in
front of me so I can't see any of that
going on um vice mayor Anderson yes
could I have Dakota come up and answer
that question I was gonna I was gonna
ask that Dakota welcome to the podium do
do you remember the question Dakota I
don't uh I was asking about there are a
number of things that are pointed out in
the report like Court pay standby call
out
compensation several different things
and my question was are these negotiated
with management now or is that something
that's not happening yeah uh thank you
for the question uh vice mayor um to all
the council members thank you for having
us and and thank you for having me up
here um Shay did an awesome job of of
presenting I think for both of us kind
of our key root of what we're looking
for here um to answer your question uh
vice mayor um I think to kind of wrap
all of this into a a nice present with a
bow on it the the answer is the meetings
happen we we sit with our management we
sit with the town and we are very
grateful for that we don't want that to
ever change um the frustration and I
think that's the the best word to use is
um there's no follow through with that
um and so all these I'm not the numbers
guy um I'm actually the relational guy
um the last president that was here was
our numbers guy so I'm I'm trying to
learn the best I can from him and from
people that are great with numbers um
but what I can say to to kind of answer
your question um we're different in the
sense that like there's no one else that
needs Court standby pay because of a
subpoena that comes in right that's how
we're unique that is one of the many
ways that the PD speaking just for PD is
unique so when we bring different
suggestions to the town or with
management um the answer is usually
always the same we'll look into it um
our last meeting we had with the town
which we are super grateful for we
brought suggestions along some of those
lines um and the answer was we're sorry
I think that got lost in our last
Financial uh retreat but we've asked
those things the last two three four
years and so what we're seeing is yes
they're being discussed to answer your
question um but there's rarely any
follow through and that's not because we
don't meet or because they're not
brought up um it's just when they when
they want to get to it
council member Buckley did you have
questions for Dakota or um just in
general other questions yeah not
questions but just a statement yeah
thank you Dakota we appreciate your
time floor is yours council member
Buckley yeah well I just wanted to say I
had a list of questions but they all got
answered I don't want you to think I'm
just sitting up here not having
questions or or or uh any else and and
uh I do appreciate Shay's presentation
because almost all of my questions got
answered there along with I did
enjoy council member Bon giovan's
questions as well so anyway that's just
all I wanted to say thank you thanks
council
member okay um Patrick do you have
anything to add as um Dakota like Dakota
said put it in a package with bow on it
thank you for that reference Dakota I
like presence um do you have anything
that you want to add mayor just if
there's any additional questions I know
the Chiefs provided some additional
information to you today uh via email if
there's any questions on any of that
material please do feel free to reach
out to the Chiefs directly if you want
any clarification or want to talk
through anything uh I would just Echo
council member til's comments and I know
the entire leadership of the Town um of
Gilbert appreciates the men and women uh
in both part departments and I have
certainly appreciated working with Shay
and Dakota and before Dakota Dan brous
who was a longtime
gpla Association leadership they' have
been a pleasure to work with we do
tackle some tough issues there are times
when we're not able to do everything
we'd like to do um but there's always
opportunity to continue to talk and and
engage with our Council and and see
what's possible uh when it comes to our
pay there is a council adopted pay
philosophy uh that at any time we would
be more than happy to sit down
uh and uh work through any potential
changes we think are appropriate I do
think the men and women serving this
community are as fine as any I've worked
with and as fine as any in the region
and uh we I don't believe with this
Council but with previous Council we
have talked about going away from 50% of
the market to 60% of the market and how
we Benchmark and Chiefs could provide
any additional clarification one thing
that um was not pointed out for our
sworn positions they actually start with
the top out pay uh and work from there
it's not exactly the same as for the
rest of the organization but um we want
to support them in the work they do and
we want to make sure that we recruit and
retain uh the best possible people we
can in service to this community and so
any tools we can work on together um to
do so um we look forward to that
dialogue thanks Patrick okay then I'll
bring it back to the council any um
discussion amongst the council comments
that you'd like to make council member
tilki I don't know if this is the time
that you want to
offer any suggestions not to put you on
the spot you don't need to go first um I
do want to say thank you to everybody
that serves this community I think that
we know that there's a difference the
second you cross the borders in the town
of Gilbert and whether that's um public
works or Public Safety it it is
dependent on all of you and I hope that
you don't take what is said in in a in a
negative way because as the staff looks
at this they're trying to look at you
trying to look at all of the employees
as a whole to make this a team I went
back and watched um oh my gosh three
Council meetings two three study
sessions and a council meeting from 2012
2013 2013 council member Taylor I saw
you on the screen listening to all the
comments and I still didn't get the one
that was in between I will tell you that
so if this comes back for future
discussion there is a meeting missing in
between those studies sessions because
we came back to one meeting and they
said we've already agreed that we were
going to Sunset the moou 6 months early
there there was no I never watched a
meeting that that happened at so that's
what I was looking
for but um we know that you work
incredibly hard in this community and it
is a great Community because of what you
do and one of the greatest assets that
we have for Public Safety is the
relationship between police and fire and
I I think it was really evident here
over these discussions too how you come
together and Shay you can come and
represent Gilbert PD as well as you
represent Gilbert Fire and I really
appreciate that and hope that as our
newer younger firefighters and police
officers come on board that they
continue that relationship because it's
not something that we see everywhere we
go but I always know um when I'm with
our fire department when I'm with our
police department and I appreciate that
and thank you and I think council member
tus and you are Maybe trying trying to
lean towards at one point and I can't
remember exactly what you said there's
been a lot said but it's how we tell
that story more than anything and how we
explain it more than anything I think
From staff's perspective and council's
perspective we
see all of the benefits that we have
provided to Public Safety over the years
but I'm not sure that the boots on the
ground appreciate them in the way that
we see them and the public safety
training facility and the remodel of the
dispatch C and what that means for
Public Safety I think it kind of gets
Lost in Translation if you will and um
we we need to look at things a little
bit differently sometimes
perspective any comments from anybody C
rorius something's not sitting right
with me and I don't know what it is yet
but I've listened to everybody speak and
I'm not I'm not seeing everybody on the
same floor there's something there's
something missing in the discussion that
is making me
uneasy I it's like listening to two
employees
argue and they're talking about
different
situations this this is not what you see
here no this is what it is
here I'm missing
something I am concerned that sheay was
admonished for doing it the way they're
supposed to be doing it now rather than
the mou way that concerns me because
if we had anou he wouldn't be admonished
but he wouldn't be talking to us
either so he wouldn't he wouldn't have
gotten
grief for talking to somebody on Council
which is the way they're supposed to be
doing it now
so that's a conflicting way of of
Behaving on the on the town itself on
the
administration uh that is a problem I
don't know which people he's referring
to specifically
but there's a problem if you're told to
do one thing but you can't do
it that's not
right and that doesn't mean throw an m
and OU in place or not but it means that
situation was not handled properly and
under to today the way we operate that
needs to be fixed immediately that
shouldn't be something that's put off
that's blown off that nobody's paying
attention to and we'll let it go to the
next meeting we have in a month and then
the next meeting that should be handled
immediately because that was the
reason anou was taken out was so they
were allowed now to talk to counsel or
the byproduct of it but that byproduct
is now not in place and they're going to
be admonished for using
that I don't understand that I don't
understand how that works and I I am not
happy to hear that people and I've heard
this from many people they feel they
concerns are blown
off I don't want us to be in a position
where we're making choices
from a dysfunctional
system whatever system it is it's
dysfunctional it's not working I can see
that because I can't even see the where
the common ground is there I'm not
really seeing it and I have had enough
employees in in my 60 years to know that
something's not sitting right somebody's
not saying something and I'm very
uncomfortable making any decision until
I have more information even
I I'm flabbergasted that I'm sitting
here talking right now I I I I want to
let it go there because I'm a little
upset that something's not coming true
here and I can feel it I know it's there
I don't know what it
is any other
comments council member
Buckley um um I I have to agree with you
council member torguson uh a bit I I
don't really feel like I can make a
decision tonight either because I think
we're not making a decision tonight well
no but I mean to know yeah to know if I
could or if I couldn't I was hoping that
that would give us you know the
information that we needed but it just
appears to me that perhaps
there's I don't know if it's the council
and the town manager if we all need to
get together and discuss this in an
executive session or something I I don't
know I think that maybe this is
definitely something we need to do but
that's just where I'm at right
now Council mayor banani thank you mayor
um I want to applaud the the process
from from everybody from staff
management and uh police and fire um
this has been a a real productive last
couple study
sessions but I don't think we're at the
end of it yet um I agree with with
council member tus and and Buckley um I
I I did not want today to be a them
versus us or whatever and it kind of
felt that way and because it feels that
way it's it's pretty Troublesome um for
me I I'm a big fan of Game of Thrones if
you guys ever watched it there's a a
very important um statement that says uh
he who gives a sentence shall swing The
Sword and what I mean by that how it
relates to me with with that comment
here I I see we have much more
discussions to to to talk
about um and I think that the next
council is the council who's going to be
dealing with
this and luckily I I see council member
elect Lions here and our two other
candidates uh keny and Aaron are both
here and I know that they were both
present or heard the last study session
also so I think they've been they've
been read
in um I don't think it's been a waste of
time at all to do the two study sessions
that we've had because we've all learned
but I I just don't think this is a
decision so close to the end of the year
that this Council should make um I know
how it feels to be on the other end when
we first started our our um after our
election that you know Council made
decisions before us and that happens but
you know we tend to get the grief the
grief of it um and I don't really want
to be in that
position um without feeling very
comfortable with where we're at right
right now um so I I personally um would
rather wait until the next C Council
take seats uh before we continue to make
this
discussion council member tilki council
member
Kowski I was waiting to see if council
member Kowski was going to unmute first
but I'll go I'll go um first um I want
to reference council member tason's
comments
about by eliminating the meet and confer
earlier that that now created a process
that said employees should come to
council and you don't have to answer
that today maybe there's some research
that needs to be done but I'm not sure
that was the intent to to bypass T of
command to go directly to council but
I'd like to just get something back on
that later um because um if that was the
intent then then your um your concerns
are are um valid council member tus and
if that wasn't the intent then maybe
there's a misunderstanding that I just
like cleared up but um I just wanted to
mention that um
I I don't agree that we need to
Institute anou to provide the best
environment for our First Responders
their fellow non sworn officers and the
rest of Team Gilbert the overwhelming
evidence of investment in to our Public
Safety department speaks for itself
including positive changes impacting
salaries and benefits many that came D
from direct conversations with labor
represent
Representatives the bottom line is we
have a budget that we must ad adhere to
apologize and the Town Council has had
to make very difficult decisions
regarding fees taxes and priorities to
ensure we can continue to fund an
organization known for its Excellence
police and fire continue to receive a
large portion of those
allocations there are already many
benefit salary exceptions given to the
unique positions of both police and fire
employees and I'm more than happy happy
to explore other options with a clear
understanding that implementing isn't at
the detriment of the organization or
other
employees what I've heard in the last
two meetings and when I met with the co
Coden is that for some reason labor has
felt that inquiries have gone unanswered
and I'd like to have Town management
explore ways to record outcomes of these
discussions to help eliminate future
misunderstandings there will be times
when budget and other considerations
cannot justify request and labor won't
always be happy with that outcome but
the loop will be closed and everyone
will be on the same page regular
meetings ensure future discussions can
occur but at at what I should say as
situations change however there'll be a
record of why the request failed in the
past as a starting point for those
discussions while labor has said their
negotiations are not controlled by the
union and they are only representatives
of Gilbert employees it appears it is
very hard to distinguish where one
begins in the other ends litigation and
strong arming for anou appears to be
driven by outside unions not only
regionally but nationally this makes me
even more hesitant to enter into an
agreement with our employees as we would
be working in good faith to only have
outside unions threaten litigation
should they
disagree with any of our decisions so in
many ways we're not even negotiating
with our own employees we're negotiating
with unions outside of our own
Community I suggest we do not Place anou
item on an agenda to be voted on by the
council I would also request that town
and management and lab
Representatives meet to identify
specific issues that are outstanding and
need resolution should an overall
discussion requiring Council input as it
relates to budget or specific policy
impacting the organization it should be
included in our Council
Retreats otherwise this should be
handled internally with input from all
sides it is not the council's role to
negotiate South iies and benefits for a
specific Department instead create a a
policy for the entire
organization
um I
think that's it for now if the
conversation moves further
into um moving mou forward I would have
other comments but with that I'd like to
just close thank you mayor thank you
council member tilki any other comments
vice mayor
I tend to agree with uh council member
tilki when she was talking
about um and that's why I listed these
items that uh Dakota was talking about
and and there's some that Shay had
listed also these are all issues that it
sounds like they they are brought up but
the concern is follow through and I
don't know how often that's been
happening uh whether follow-through has
been something that it hasn't been
happening over the years and but that
needs to be corrected and I don't know
at this point if an mlu solves that or
not um I'm still debating that in my
mind mayor are you able to hear me now
yes council member Kowski welcome to the
party hello I know you've been here all
along I'm just
kidding yes I really appreciate
everyone's insightful questions their
answers and I thought there was a lot to
be gained from
this study session um I agree with the
statement that council member tilky
mentioned um my biggest concerns related
to the items that I heard related
to pay and benefits but a lot of that um
I think can be handled at a companywide
or at like a organization wide level and
and I'd like to see maybe some of that
looked into and and if we are not able
to make those adjustments um I agree
with the comments relating to trying to
close the loop on what can or cannot be
addressed and within what time frame at
the previous study session there was a
couple of comments regarding some loss
of personnel policies that specifically
related to sworn personnel um that may
need to be reviewed and included um in
our Personnel policies so those are the
only items that I heard or that I would
absolutely support making sure that we
follow up with and continue to um
address thank
you thank you council member
Capri any other
comments yes oh Council tus sorry I
didn't see you turn your mic off I am
curious to find out what the policies
and procedures that have been dropped
since those were put into place I would
love to know what's not there that was
there what was lost when the mou went
away they Incorporated things into they
did a
grand they they Incorporated things into
our employment policies but I've been
told they've been Stripped Away over the
years I would like to know
specifically what was there that is no
longer there since it was initially put
into uh HR policies does anybody know
what that
is mayor kelman uh torgus and we can
certainly get that for you the only one
that comes to mind that I can think of
outside of U made potential tweaking
through the years was I believe vacation
buyback and maybe one of our Chiefs
could confirm that but I think that's
the only um substantive thing I'm aware
of mayor council member torgenson uh I'm
not sure what has been Stripped Away but
there are a handful of uh rules we have
in our policy that are carryovers from
theou that are in our policies and we
continue to follow them but they are not
in the benefits or in the Personnel or
admin guidelines and so th those are
ones we could easily incorporate if the
town saw to uh to do that uh some of
those examples are our officers um are
allowed to do take a day to do all their
medical appointments that was a
carryover um our there was one
more the six
time oh no there's one more um I'll let
Rob go because I I have it in my notes
there's two or threes that we we carry
it over and I'll consult with my uh
mayor council Council M Tuson the the
one specific mention Patrick's correct
when we did the initial conversion of
theou Provisions into the Personnel
rules and administrative guidelines uh
that one was omitted through no error we
just weren't qu thorough enough uh to
get that added to the administrative
guidelines uh during my tenure uh that's
something I know speaking with Shay
specifically that I've offered I support
that measure um I've offered up a couple
times and I think that's a good uh
starting point for for an issue for us
to move forward with uh at this point
there were other priorities uh but
that's absolutely something uh that is
mutually beneficial to have that
conversation because it helps us out
with Staffing and uh opportunities for
employees on
compensation the when people said things
have been Stripped Away over the years
has nothing been Stripped Away over the
years was that just something that was
said and not actually valid I'm not I
got so the other one I was thinking of
is our um so we we have Dawning and
doing which allows us we uh have time
for our officers they start their shift
at say 1:00 they don't have to be in
briefing till 1:20 so that's one thing
that that's been carried over the other
is the um admin hour for sworn officers
they're allowed as long as they're
caught up on their work they're allowed
to work out at our facility for 1 hour
either at the beginning or the end of
their shift or for non- patrol positions
if they can incorporate into their day
that was a carryover the one that uh
Dakota uh just mentioned to me we're not
he's verifying whether it was or was not
in theou but that is a change that I did
make when I got here which was sick time
is no longer a driver of overtime that
was an issue that we were seeing I would
give you the short version uh people
would call in sick it was uh because
they couldn't get a day off and then
they would end up picking up a shift on
their days off and they'd come out 5
hours ahead once we changed that rule um
that went away we had mandatory overtime
we had mandatory standby for patrol once
we got rid of that policy that was we
were able to eliminate that we'll verify
whether that was a carryover that I got
rid of that is one change that I made in
around 18 um and that made a positive
impact on our not only our overtime but
our morale and our uh standby pay as
well but that's the only
one mayor council members there was also
one item that apparently was left out of
policies and guidelines that was a 5%
pay increase while on an injury
assignment in our fire department that
was actually getting paid and and then
because it wasn't in the guideline and
we changed who was running our um
inputting that information in the system
when we realized that that was not
getting paid we went back and made
corrections to it and we've added the
language back into the policy so that
was one that got that that sort of fell
off to my knowledge for when when things
were added from theou but it's been
rectified sense and corrected all right
so what I'm hearing is really nothing
has been taken out at least of any
substance that you can recall mayor
council M Tor that I believe that's
correct to my knowledge uh there's no
benefits that were intentionally
Stripped Away
uh from uh from the original of the mou
process that is
correct what would um the council like
to
do I just like to sleep on it because I
haven't digested this I'm very
uncomfortable in a lot of places and I
want discussions with management I want
to hear why certain things happened
and I I want want to sit and digest this
and I don't know exactly what that means
for everybody else and where they're
sitting
but I have more to learn
here vice
mayor I'm kind of in the same position I
um I know we're looking whether or not
to put it on an agenda and make a final
decision of some kind but I'm
uncomfortable given the information we
have
now of
moving it forward in that direction
unless we have a little bit more time to
to digest
this Council mayor Buckley yeah I I
agree with both of
them council member bani I'm agree
also council member tilki council member
Kowski anything to
add mayor um the only thing I would like
to add is that if we direct staff
to identify those issues that are um
outstanding that labor feels they have
not received a response on and in
addition to that um looking at what may
have fallen off during theou and the
intent of uh when Mee and confer went
away the conversation with Council um
they could bring that back um I think
that's a toal little separate issue than
theou I think that that that's uh an
item that can be discussed to see how we
can be better at
communicating with our labor and them
with us um that is um should be
accomplished no matter if the council
wants to look at anou far into the
future or
not I don't have any further comments
thank you council member kaprosy I was
waiting patiently thank you I appreciate
that um when you say you want to wait
and you need time to digest we need a we
need the staff I think would need a path
forward at this point are you talking
about I've heard I've heard a couple
things thrown out I've heard an
executive session with Patrick to
discuss management and the things that
you've heard tonight maybe get some
follow-up information I've heard digest
it and come back later but what does
that mean we need a path forward I would
like an executive session to find out
what's going on with certain things
Personnel discussions with Personnel
people that have been admonished who did
it why I would love that uh I would like
to find it in that same executive
session I would like to hear uh nuts and
bolts of what's been removed that now no
longer apparently makes things no longer
work properly uh according to some right
uh I want I want to hear that and then
after that executive session we can make
a decision if we want to talk more in
study session if we want to move it
forward whatever but I want to hear a
lot of specific information that I feel
staff and and labor reps should be able
to get inserted into our
discussion and it's a discussion that
maybe doesn't need to happen in anything
but in executive sense session because
it involves possible Personnel
issues okay you lost me for one second
that you want labor to be involved in
did you mean coming to the executive
session or you me I want to make sure
that the questions that their that they
Supply are discussed in executive
session okay I just wanted to clarify I
want to be clear Dakota asked to come
back up theota I'm going to let
you thank you mayor uh I just wanted to
uh wanted to clarify uh some of the
actual items that were left out of the
umou uh when it became Personnel rules
um there could be more than this but
these are what we have as of right now
so I just want to make that clear um so
these things are are items that fell off
not necessarily things new things we
would be asking for or anything like
that I just want to make that clear that
these are just actual items um um some
of them include the lead officer program
alternative schedules sick leave
incentive ability to donate sick to
affected
employees and here's the big one um that
I can answer questions if there is IIA
process and discipline Advisory Board
those things fell off of theou and were
rolled into um what we currently have
now thank you thank you and we can um
bring those to our exe bring them to the
exec section now that we have specific
items thanks for that Dakota Chris yes
mayor Peterson Council I just want to
remind that under the executive session
statute we're Limited in what the
discussions can be we could talk about
Personnel issues if there's a specific
person specific employee but not
generally um legal advice we can
certainly provide that but it sounds
like some of this discussion that the
council's considering could not occur an
executive session it would have to be an
open session or individually but not as
a body um we could talk about the legal
aspects there is a provision in the
executive session statute that talks
about it allows executive session if
you're having negotiations with an
employee Association that's not the case
here so we couldn't use that that
exception thank you for that reminder
appreciate it council member bonani
thank you mayor um I would like to do
the same information that council member
torus is is uh requesting by all also
like to uh have discussions with uh
labor themselves and feel that if we
have discussions that you are not
putting yourself in any position because
as of now you can have those discussions
with
us are you are you asking for a sit-down
discussion between the entire Council
and the Labor Management I'm trying to
clarify no I just want to get some
answers from their perspective on on
some things
also so you want more time to one-onone
with Dakota and o thank you um next
question do you want to do this soon or
do you want to hold it till next year
because I keep hearing two different
things
and I would like to
clarify I depends on how much time it
takes to get meetings together get an
executive session together with all the
information we're how many meetings do
we have list this year four we have four
meetings left which we'll need at least
one study session in there to be able to
discuss this publicly
correct so you want but you would want
the exec session first I would imagine
yes ma'am so that so I'm just trying to
lay it out you want an exec session
first yes ma'am to cover the things that
we can cover legally with Chris and um
then another study session yes before
you will decide whether or not you want
to bring this to an
agenda I would think so because I don't
at this point I don't have the
information to make a qualified decision
why would I bring it to an agenda if I
can't even I I can't even discern some
of what I'm hearing because it's it's
not right there's there's a disconnect
somewhere in here and I would like to
feel I'm making a proper decision when I
do and I think I need all that
information before I make that
decision vice mayor your
comments I'm good with the process that
you've outlined mayor I think that it
would work
okay coun Pani mayor I'll answer your
question I think we I agree with the
process but I'm
still very solid about um having this
discussion and voting um with the new
councils since we're the ones will be
having to deal with
this then would we could we have the
study session a after the new council is
in place so it's not doesn't feel like a
waste of time for some people that
aren't going to be around I don't think
she wants to hear it I don't want to sit
through this again I asked last meeting
that we didn't have to have this study
session now so that you could move it
forward and I couldn't get a consensus
out of the group that way because nobody
wants to talk this is a political issue
it's a difficult issue for our community
it is not a good issue to be discussing
and so I was trying to be the only one
that was bold enough to say it he's
smirking it's true so Mike if you want
to hold this to next year then don't
waste our time because and I know you
don't like that statement but if you're
going to do an executive session the
council members that are elected are not
going to be able to be a part of that so
they're not going to hear any of that
that's fine and then another study
session that they should be able to
participate in I'm trying to lay it out
for you so that everybody can be
successful in this discussion I'm not
trying to be a thorn in your side that I
know you think that I am but there
there's staff needs to know how to lay
it out let's lay it out that just the
whole thing happens after the first yeah
I'm good with that I mean staff needs
Direction I know that they do I've
worked with them long I'm good with that
but I also want to make a comment
that anytime you learn something you
learn something it's never a waste of
time so that's how I feel about that I I
don't want to consider this a waste of
time because it wasn't at all I didn't
say it was a waste of your time I said
that I thought it was a waste of my time
I was being honest you don't like that
I'm honest I can or the I'm forthcoming
you're allowed to say whatever you want
to up here but I'm not I felt that you
had wasted my time by bringing it
forward and then all of a sudden
changing your mind and saying no we need
to do it next year that's what I felt I
have a right to say so I think to to
take it off the plate till next year is
the proper thing to do I didn't get the
answers I was thinking I might hear or
answers I was hoping somehow to get left
or right and to go through this
process that's going to take some time
anyhow table it till after the first of
the year let's just table there's no
reason to sit and die on the D for it
right now there isn't it needs to move
forward get some time and a little a
couple meetings a couple things to talk
about get some real answers to know what
we're really talking about here and
let's just do it after the
first and that way it really doesn't
become what I would I would agree is a
is a waste of time for a couple people
let's just do it let's let's take
this to January whatever if I was going
to be voting on something then I don't
mind spending as much time as I need to
to learn about that issue if I'm not
going to be part of the process then it
doesn't make sense for me or council
member telkki to be part of the process
and and have to do extra meetings I
agree you all talk about how much time
you spend but no but I agree with you
Council Mar Buckley I just wanted to
bring out there I believe there was an
issue that Jim mentioned that we needed
to address right away the issue of um
someone being admonished um and so do we
want to take care of that in a different
meeting right away or is that also are
we going to spend another three months
waiting to address that and have that
under the table again Town manager mayor
council members if it could maybe I'll
have our two chiefs come up I'm not sure
exactly what the issue is um I know when
thee was sunset the both Association
both organizations worked with their
associations to put together a labor
management process in which there was an
agreement and how issues would be
brought up discussed worked through move
up the chain in the command um but again
without understanding specifically what
that issue is I can't speak to that I do
know that you guys are welcome to speak
to any of our employees and I know you
often do speak to any of our employees
without any admonishment on any issue so
Mike maybe I'll turn it over to you and
Rob sounds like it was a more recent
issue perhaps because it sounds like it
involved Shay and he's only been the
head of the association for two almost
two years right so it sounds like it's a
more recent issue so I'll give you the
PD perspective mayor and counsel I'm not
aware of any admonishments from the PD I
would um classify a discussion I had
with not gpla but with one of the other
labor groups we had written uh
communication and directives of how our
we had agreed to communicate with labor
to Chief and then labor to management
and that understanding was if there's an
issue that uh needs to be brought to the
chief's attention please do so if
there's an issue that I cannot resolve
management and even if I am part of that
or not able to resolve it management is
always welcome to hear that so that was
the ask from our labor groups was to
address issues to uh Chief first so that
we don't Waste Management's time and
then if we can't resolve it or if it
does need to go to the Management's
level then do so and not go to council
again to not bother your busy schedules
if it's something that we give us the
opportunity to resolve whatever that
issue may be um at the chief level or
the management level and so that's the
only discussion I'm aware of no one was
everyone has a different opinion of what
admonishment please don't do that again
or you shall not do that again everyone
has a different and I won't speak on
other's behalf I can tell you on behalf
of discussions I've had that was a
reminder of the rules that we had agreed
to of how to bring issues up to the
Chief and to management rather than
bypassing that process that's the whole
point of meeting monthly and quarterly
with the both of us so that we can
address those issues because we could
probably save you the time of having to
listen to it if we can provide them with
the answers uh that they're seeking and
and what I would propose is that we um
that I'll talk to Dakota what issues
have not been addressed we can try to
hone in on why that wasn't addressed
because I'm not aware of any issues that
weren't addressed are there any other
issues that have not been brought up
that we can try to address now outside
of study sessions and we can try to
hammer out whatever concerns they have
identify issues inou and explain why
things may or may not have been removed
or what we should do with those I'll
turn over Chief
dougen uh mayor council I'm not aware of
the admonishment issue that was spoken
to earlier um we've been meeting with
the labor leaders for the two years I've
been fire chief we meet weekly almost
weekly uh dependent on schedule
specifically um I think it was
highlighted that information was brought
to council um I I don't know what that
issue uh might be I will say that Shay
and I have great Communications I we
appreciate each other's perspective we
sometimes have Lively discussions about
any particular interest or approach uh
we frequently um share perspectives on
Shay this is my perspective on something
you said or did and he will provide that
to me which I find tremendous benefit of
because oftentimes he speaks for the
firefighters uh so we often have
discussions like that we always land in
a good place uh so um I am unaware of a
specific admonishment that was um spoken
of but I seek to have opportunities and
our meeting weekly meetings which we'll
have tomorrow and every week uh moving
forward to learn more about it uh so we
can get and share perspectives on uh how
we communicate and I think again
definitions of admonishment will be a
good starting point to understand what
that is um so that's the information
I've got for you thank you thanks Chiefs
um I just had to laugh because I
mentioned that I watched those Council
meetings and council member armor
council member Victor Peterson would
read a definition of a word or a term
and tell everybody what that meant and
one of them was meet and confer and I I
just sorry I laughed when you said that
a definition of something because it
just came right back to my mind
sometimes I miss Victor um so what I'm
hearing is that I I think that what
needs to probably happen is during your
individual meetings with Patrick you can
talk to Patrick about anything that you
feel has come up during this
conversation as staff prepares to bring
back an executive session after the
first of the year before
a study session if necessary because I'm
not going to say you have to have a
study session but I would say plan for
an executive session based on what you
can be discussed during an executive
session and then see if you decide that
you when the new council members are
there whoever that might be um then you
can decide if you want another study
session or what you will be doing to
move forward at that point in time staff
do you have that laid out
okay all right anything else no ma' okay
I have one yes ma'am I'm sorry um I if I
and I don't know if this is appropriate
or not and and maybe Chris can let me
know but once um Chief soberg and chief
Dugan if once you guys have those
conversations can you let us you know
apprise us of of what happened is that
appropriate could I was going to say
since I recommended that you have
individual conversations with Patrick
maybe the chief report back to Patrick
what they've learned and would that be
okay Chiefs report back to Patrick and
what you've learned and then when you
have your individual 101s with Patrick
then you can discuss whatever's come out
of that to make it
easier then it's not six people having
meetings with both Chiefs and Patrick
try to condense it a little bit okay
then I will go ahead um anything else
ladies online council member tilki
council member Koski I don't want to
forget anybody
hearing
nothing nothing from me thanks thank
you I will go
ahead and adjourn this meeting