Study Session - 3/25/2025 5:00:00 PM

e
e
e
e
e
e
e
e
e
e
e e
we're ready to to
go I'll call this study session to order
we have a roll call
please Mayor Scott Anderson here vice
mayor Bobby Buckley here council member
Kenny buckin here council member Monty
Lions here council member Chuck Bon
Giovani I am here council member young
Kowski here aor is present I call you
council member Jim Ferguson AUM is
present I didn't hear you I didn't hear
you we have one item uh on the agenda
tonight presentation and discussion on
public records requests related to cost
process limitations and allowable
options by
Statute CH thank you good evening mayor
members of council Chavi Herrera town
clerk I'm here uh this evening with our
town attorney Chris pain we will be
discussing public records requests this
item came before us at the request of
council so the intent in this
presentation will to be to provide an
overview of public records for the town
of Gilbert talk a little bit about the
data that that we're seeing uh
specifically numbers of requests
completion times costs associated with
public record requests some fees that we
are able to charge and then kind of end
that presentation talking about some
limitations and restrictions under
public record Law and of course if you
have questions between the presentation
please interrupt and we'll be happy to
discuss anything further so this first
slide I wanted to provide a little bit
more of clarification as we move into
this conversation the first bullet point
there it talks about Arizona public
record law versus the Freedom of
Information Act um just more of a
distinction is we often hear the term
Foya being used but Arizona actually um
is governed by Arizona public record Law
whereas Foya is for federal agencies so
although there are some uh Provisions
that I I'm sure are similar I just
wanted to make that point of
clarification into this discussion that
Gilbert falls under Arizona public
record Law specifically the second
bullet point just talks about some of
the titles and statute that we refer
back to um so when we do talk about law
or statute we look towards title 39 in
the Arizona revised statutes related to
public records and title 41 which is
specific to records management and then
the third bullet point there we are not
going to go into any level of detail
regarding subpoenas I just wanted you to
have awareness that those are also types
of Records requests that we we provide
um we don't get a lot of them but we do
get um a handful of them and they are
Court required document production
sometimes that comes with a requirement
of testimony as well so when we do get
those we have to make an internal
decision how to prioritize those but the
majority of requests that we get and
what we'll be talking about today are
public records requests specific um the
fourth point is just um we must comply
with retention for all of our records
here at the town of Gilbert and other
municipalities for records related to
records requests the state does require
we keep those for a year we do keep
those for 2 and a half years so I just
wanted to make that point of
clarification to that while the system
is purging those at the end of 2 and 1/2
years we are meeting that requirement at
the state level as well and then the
four or the fifth bullet point here
Chris may want to go into a little bit
more detail but access to records may be
outweighed by confidentiality privacy
interest or the best interest of the
town so if there's a request that we
feel might fall under any of those we
will look for our uh Town attorney's uh
decision on whether or not any records
fall under those categories and are
subject to um not being disclosed did
anyone have questions on that that Chris
could speak to
or I have a question best interests of
the
town can you clarify that yes um mayor
Anderson council member torgas and Town
Council so these are the exceptions to
the public records law right
confidentiality that's pretty easy
things like the attorney client
privilege we don't provide that
information privacy interest think of
HIPPA um pii personally identify
information will not disclose some stuff
or sometimes we redact it and then the
best interest of the Town that's an
argument it's created in case law where
the town can refuse to provide documents
when it's in our best interests and uh
one example of that is one of the court
cases one of the seminal court cases
Arizona Supreme Court cases on this is
someone had made a request this is going
back in the early 99s for ASU was hiring
a new president and the media had
requested I want a copy of all
applicants for that position and Arizona
State University pushed back and said no
we're not going to provide that to you
because a lot of these people they're
not going to be considered and they have
current jobs and we think it will harm
the university if everyone that applies
for a position there like this knows
that their name's going to be out there
because it could impact their current
employment and we'll provide you the
finalist once the finalists are there
but not everybody and that ended up they
got challenged on that and Ed up in the
Supreme Court and the Supreme Court said
hey a City a state under the public
records law the county they can withhold
documents if they can articulate that
it's in their best interest to do so so
you have to articulate a business reason
why it's not in our interest to do so
some one example besides something like
that one example that we would do is we
could say if someone's making a super
broad request and we do a say they want
every email ever sent for the past 5
Years From Any anyone associated with
the town we'll do a record search it
will run the number it's probably
millions of records and we're going to
come back and we're going to say we know
what we're not going to fulfill that
because that will take five years of 18
full-time staff members to review each
document so the way we would not respond
we' say it's our best interest not to
provide that because it's going to take
our employees away from their their
other jobs to provide you know to
respond to this very very broad
request but doesn't that also wouldn't
when I'm just looking at the the actual
words in your best interest if the town
per se did something
wrong would it be in the best interest
of the town to reveal that through a
records request probably not in our best
interest but I don't think we have
coverage correct it's it's no the the
law says and the case law says that the
town has to articulate the reasons why
it's not responding to that request why
it's refusing to respond and because it
could make somebody at the Town look
back bad or make the town look bad
that's not an appropriate reason and the
town could not under the law withhold
withhold any records for that reason
it's related to the business purposes if
someone wants for example if the town's
negotiating a development agreement with
a party and somebody wants all those
negotiations we're going to say no we're
not going to provide the negotiations
because the agreement's not yet
finalized and understanding or knowing
what the the town council's position is
and these negotiated points is going to
harm the town town because we're in AC
of negotiations that's an example of
when it's in our best interest but just
because to make someone look bad that
absolutely is not we would provide those
documents thank
you all right diving into a little bit
more specifics on public oh sorry go
ahead council member B bun thank you um
Chris in your example of um the Press
trying to get uh information from ASU
What would be the process if ASU said no
you have to give that information what
would be their process their their next
step so council member Juan Giovanni
you're talking about the press in
scenario let's say you deny someone for
you
information what is their process after
that so under the public records law
we're required to promptly respond and
and Chell will get into that in a bit um
if we come back and we say we're not
going to provide these documents because
it's they're subject to one of the
exceptions right the town's best
interest and if we're saying if we're
pushing back on that scenario we have to
provide and articulate a reason why we
can't just say it's in our best interest
we have to tell them why we're not
providing it uh or if it's confidential
or it's subject to privacy interest we
we have to tell them we're not providing
these documents for this reason the next
step for the requestor in the ASU case
the media would be they have to file a
public records lawsuit they have to go
to court and and in that scenario the
burden shifts on the city right if we're
not providing documents and we get into
to court on a public records lawsuit the
plaintiff typically has the burden in
this case the person making the request
but in this scenario it would be us to
provide we carry the burden to the city
or to the court to explain to the court
why these documents are confidential or
why they're not going to be released in
our best interest and again courts are
very they give deference to the public
records law their open meeting law or
the public records law are what they are
and so for us to refuse to provide docu
ments we have to have a solid good faith
basis because the courts will provide
they'll they'll order you provide so we
we take that very seriously here so when
we if we are responding to a records
request and not providing documents it's
because we've we've analyzed it and we
know we have a good faith basis to do so
thank
you all right I'll move right into
public record Law specifics so under the
title 39 public record Law it does
require that public records and other
matters in the custody of the public
body be promptly furnished as Chris just
spoke to and made available for
inspection it does require a distinction
between commercial and non-commercial
requests so that is one of the first
things requesters must identify when
they submit a request is whether or not
they are going to be using it for a
commercial purpose or non-commercial and
for clarification a commercial purpose
means um in obtaining the records the
requester intends to sale or resale them
and they anticipate some type of
monetary gain they have to to be up
upfront and forward with that
information at the time of the request
most of our requests are non-commercial
um since we do process them as that
going going forward uh public record Law
does not require the creation of new
requests to fulfill a request so we do
get request sometimes that asks for very
specific record types or details we
provide records if they're available in
the format in which they're available we
are not required to recreate any type of
record uh for several reasons but mainly
because that's not a record we currently
keep and in doing so we are now creating
new record series that we have to
maintain going forward um it does uh
recognize rights to Witnesses and
victims so our PD side handles that for
any uh Witnesses or victims and and
understands the rights under public
record Law it does recognize uh the
redaction of pii so personal identifying
information and then it does require or
does um indicate what records They that
are confidential by Statute
we'll dive into a little bit more about
public records request specifically with
the platform so um to add the to the
confusion our platform we use is called
just Foya even though I told you we
don't fall under Foya um so that adds to
some of the confusion when we talk about
public records but we have a obligation
under statute to provide records
promptly um by doing so we do have a
records officer designated for the town
that is myself the town clerk um and the
way that we comply with this requirement
of Statute is we use a platform called
just Foya for the processing of our
public records requests we began using
this platform in
2018 and the entire organization uses it
now our PD uh partners and Fire EMS came
on board I think PD came on board
December of 2022 in fire in um Fire EMS
in um May of 2023 the only Department
that does not use this form or this
platform is our courts Department
because they fall under the AOC the
administrative office of the courts so
they have different requirements so they
they are not utilizing this program this
program uh does consolidate the
management of requests across multiple
departments it's really intended to be
an efficient way to expedite public
records requests um it assists Us in
better understanding what are we seeing
what's the data look like how many
requests are we getting what's the
processing time look like we're able to
really see what what it is we're
navigating through um but I just wanted
to be clear that the law does not
require us to use processing system that
is a decision the town made back in 2018
to make that investment for the town so
that we could handle public records
request more efficiently prior to that
they were all handled very manually um
so that was a decision made back
then this um slide is really meant to be
as simple as it as it shows this is what
I believe to be a snapshot on what
somebody believes the process looks like
when submitting a public records request
first step is the submitt of one when
once received by the town um it is
routed for processing third step is that
it's processed by uh the department and
then it's released to the requestor but
this next slide really shows the
complexity involved every single time
that we receive a public records request
uh the first um bullet point there when
you submit a records request law does
not require that you submit a request
any specific way you can email one in
come in person you can use our platform
you can call us for one or you can
submit a for one um once that's
determined how we get it we do enter it
into our just boia system for processing
so that's a manual process that we have
to enter that information if it doesn't
already come through that platform and
then once received and before we can
really route we have to make a number of
determinations at that point is it
commercial is it non-commercial it does
it require data emails text messages any
any documents that our it Partners have
to help us on is the request unclear
many times we do have a request that's
broad or a little unclear and it
requires staff time to reach out um
sometimes multiple times to a requester
to gain that Clarity before we even know
how to process that request is it a town
record some of our records that we see
are actually not records of the town
they may be Maricopa County assessor's
office or another agency that we have to
reach out to that requestor and clarify
with them sometimes we get duplicate
requests on different forms so we have
to keep an eye out for that um if it
involves multiple departments that adds
to the complexity and if it involves
multiple record types same it involves
um adds to the complexity as well and
then um is there any type of payment
required before we can process for
commercial requests we do require a $10
payment for commercial requests and I
know our PD Partners um may require
deposits for their records before they
can begin processing as well once it's
routed um there are a level of different
needs as for departments as they're
fulfilling the requests documents have
to be loaded uploaded by multiple
departments multiple divisions sometimes
that happens at different times just
depending on backlog and workload um
redaction may be needed we review all of
the records um us being the town it's
it's a townwide initiative to ensure
that any redaction must be done legal
review may be required on some cases an
additional review may be required
depending on you know case-by case
scenarios that require maybe uh levels
of review on our PD side um and then
finally after all that is said and done
the request is finally released to the
request and they will have access to
their
information um we wanted to provide just
some um examples to kind of put that
into perspective so the example we'll
provide is just uh the request for Town
email a request can come in for emails
sometimes it's multiple of the following
right multiple date ranges not just one
multiple Search terms multiple email
addresses are involved in a single
request we will route that request to
our it um department and they pull all
the records related to that those Search
terms
those results are then provided to our
um legal department for an initial
review it does take staff a manual
process to review every single email to
ensure that they're responsive to what
the request is asking and why that's
important is because while we are
utilizing a program to pull these emails
these text messages these programs don't
understand context or content they they
they are taking the words that are being
provided into this platform and pulling
that information so it does require a
sta uh a staff member to manually review
every single record every single
attachment that is pulled in response to
these requests redaction must be
completed for anything that's uh
confidential or privileged um and then
it's sent through another additional
final review those vary caseby casee
again depending on the type of record it
is or any required um review processes
then finally it's released to the
requestor and Chris did provide a an
actual example he had so I can let him
speak to that here
so mayor and Council this is just one
example of of one of the types of uh
public records requests that end up you
know being routed through the attorney's
office the vast majority of requests we
don't touch um people making requests
for building permits those are really
easy they get processed through
development services we don't the
attorney's office we don't have a role
we only have a role where there's these
broad requests for emails and other
documents like that that could contain
privileged or confidential information
and because of that we've got to go
through each one so this is an example
of an actual request that was made uh
just a few months ago it's all all text
and emails uh two and from two specific
council members in the month of August
2024 so it what happens is the clerk's
office gets this request whether it was
made via email or through just for
system they then reach out to the IT
department and says here are the Search
terms and sometimes there's back and
forth this one's pretty simple they're
not asking for keywords it's just all
emails and text so it will then run a
search and then those results which you
see here there was 3100 emails 730
attachments so 3800 and that's just
emails that's not pages right some
attachments are
multi-pages um the time estimate that we
give on this is about 40 hours so that's
about what it would take my pargal to go
through each one of these documents
and look at each page to make sure hey
redact what needs to be redacted is a
attorne client privilege and then to get
this to get this one request ready to
release this is one of many we received
lots of like this or very broad search
terms
so so we wanted to Bri uh provide
another example from our Police
Department some of their public record
requests may include one or all of the
following so reports body warn camera uh
footage dash cam building videos ring or
privately owned videos photos 911 audio
dispatch audio um and what's important
to note here too is depending on the
scenario or or the request it could be
one scene or scenario where there's
multiple body warn cameras multiple dash
cams so although one of these can all of
these can be um requested sometimes that
that request will grow sub substantially
depending on that incident specifically
how many people were involved in it and
um how many hours of footage are
involved but each of their requests
require multiple Specialists to work on
them they have specialist ones and twos
and we'll talk a little bit more about
those in the next couple slides um it
can contain hours of footage and audio
to review and redact um there's
additional levels of review that may be
required again that's Case by case it's
really hard to say what a standard may
be um and then that's already complex
but then if you add any requests for
emails or it related data that's handled
on the town side so that does add to um
the complexity and the volume of
information that staff have to review
and and provide in response to those
requests um again high level what that
process looks like is once a request is
received uh this is one for an ongoing
police investigation it may include a
place report body warn camera audio
dispatch um it it's in placed in a queue
in order that it's received then it's
routed for their records team to provide
an initial redaction and processing then
records are routed to a assigned case
detectives for review of pii but also
case sensitive information that they
feel could possibly jeopardize the
ongoing investigation then it's sent
through redaction and final review again
Case by case and then ultimately um
released to the requestor um one thing I
wanted to make note is they did provide
PD did provide an example of a very
large request that they did regarding
body warant camera a single request um
ultimately contained 437 videos that
totaled 4 , 348 minutes of video and
required 144 hours of Total processing
time uh for a single request so just to
put in kind of perspective how one
request can really add um hours and
hours of footage and audio just
depending on the incident in
question um this information is just um
kind of what we're seeing we talk a lot
about how much we're processing how many
requests we're getting um we do know
that in some cases we do have uh Records
request in the queue or maybe a backlog
of requests but I wanted to show this to
show that while we are getting a
substantial number of requests we are
actually completing a a great number of
requests as well at any given time um
this shows the the data for 2023 24 and
then 2025 to date so in 2023 while we
completed
24373 requests we got uh we received
2,492 so we've kind of seen that be the
standard across the board that while we
are trying to keep up with the demand we
are still getting um a higher volume of
requests that we're than we're able to
keep up with in most cases a lot of
times I feel that's due to the the
volume of them the complexity just the
details that are required and the manual
staff time required in each of those
requests that are coming through us and
then this next slide is more specific
how each of these departments are are
processing these are completed requests
across the organization these six um
General names are the names of our forms
within our our uh platform so PD as you
can see have by far the highest number
of requests coming in um and the um last
uh Arrow there 2025 to date those
numbers are still small of course at
this time but we are watching them and
we believe they're still going to be
above the the last year in in terms of
the number of requests that we're being
able to be completed across the
organization going into a little bit
about um Staffing and support we do have
some dedicated positions um in some of
our departments we have one in our town
attorney's office we have one in our oh
sorry I skipped a slide let's talk first
about program costs um we do pay ongoing
cost to use the just Foya platform
currently it is 20 around
$20,000 however due to some necessary
updates of the program and to support
the various needs that we're seeing
across our department specifically our
Public Safety Partners we we um are
going through an upgrade of the platform
and ongoing costs will be around
32,000 um in FY 2026 and those do also
come with a 5% annual increase um every
year as
well and then talking about Staffing and
support costs we do have some dedicated
positions um and when I say dedicated
those positions were created
specifically to kind of handle the
workload of public records requests and
Records um we have one in our town
attorney's office the par it's a paralal
one in the clerk's office we do have
additional positions that I just wanted
to make mention of because those
positions weren't initially created for
public records but it's my understanding
they completely absorb them for their
various departments so one in our fire
department and one in our building
department um and then of course we have
dedicated positions in our Gilbert
Police Department they have one records
manager four record shift supervisors 21
record Specialists of the 21 specialist
16 are considered specialist ones um so
they do not actually currently handle
any of the digital media review and
redution um so five specialist twos are
handling the majority of of that
information so I wanted to provide this
because although we're able to
understand Staffing costs for these
dedicated positions for public records
there's a huge organizational impact
involved um it's a responsibility for
everybody to be able to assist with
fulfillment of public records whether
it's compiling the data reviewing the
data um redacting coordinating multip
multiple Department request that is a
substantial number that is very
difficult to understand uh we don't
currently track staff time for public
record request it's a requirement that
we must comply with um so while we are
pro able to provide some understanding
on what we know there are some um other
uh impacts that we we don't have the
information on at this time and I know
Chris you had some information on some
cost for your team
specifically yes so so for my team again
our role in the records process is when
we're looking at items that need
redaction or there's potential
confidentiality or best interest so I've
got one dedicated uh paralal she was um
it's a new position that was created a
couple of years ago before that we just
handled it without the full-time
employee but we were getting um so many
it seems like so many more requests of
these broad requests that required a
detailed review we ended up um hiring
new pargal this is her job full-time and
then an estimate with just our other
staff and then attorney time about 10%
probably of the attorney time is spent
looking at checking her work on the
redactions so as far as numbers wise in
the attorney's office and this is just
our role um with a one full-time
employee and some part-time work we're
looking probably we spend probably 300
to
$350,000 a year in attorney work
including the paralal in you know
fulfilling the town's oblig a to respond
to record's requests and make sure that
they're fully looked at before they get
released um for the clerk side we do
also have a full-time position and we do
utilize our Administrative Assistant as
well to support that effort and for our
PD Partners they do have those full-time
staff members as well so we do have um
projections on how much they're spending
on Personnel cost um they're about 2.1
million and in Personnel cost for FY
2025 but they do have a larger group
dedicated to public record
um so these are the known costs for
public records and while we can speak to
those uh this type of work is larger
than that the the true cost is something
that's very difficult to to put in
perspective just again because it
reaches every single um employee of of
the town and it's a requirement and a
responsibility of all are there any
questions on Staffing before we move
on go ahead council member buin thank
you in regard to the video redactions in
PD we doing General blurs or are we
doing Precision reductions on each of
those good afternoon mayor and councel
uh Lorenzo Tua Sergeant over our public
affairs office to answer your question
council member Buckland it is a general
blur all right we'll move on but we can
always go back to any slide if you have
additional questions this slide just
shows um are fee schedules that are
approved um we uh just wanted to make
note too that all fees collected whether
it's from the PD site or the town side
do report um go into the town's general
fund so they don't go to any Department
specific not the clerk's office not PD
they are used for general fund um
spending um and
then for uh the town side we do have
some um limitations on what we can
charge for non-commercial requests as
you can see here we can charge to
reproduce a copy or for mailing but we
do not charge and we're not authorized
to charge for electronic records that's
that adds to kind of the the issue that
we're seeing is the amount of staff time
it's requiring to produce these records
we aren't able to um other than the
charge to make a copy which nobody is
asking for hard copies anymore or to
mail out anything non-commercial related
those are the only thing we're
authorized to charge for
and then last slide is just limitations
and restrictions that we that we see
with public records law statute
establishes what can and can't be
charged there's not a lot of wiggle room
in that it doesn't really expand to any
level of that that we can um really
modify our Feast schedule or structure
on requests are not required to be
written so again there's no mechanism
for anyone to submit a request they can
come at us at any at any time in any way
and we must provide them um the
requested information requesters are not
required to disclose their identities uh
there's nothing in statue that requires
them to provide their name or address
all they're required to provide as an
email address if they want electronic
copies otherwise they can come in person
and pay for hard copies if they wish to
do so we do have our promptly furnish
concerns so while statute requires that
me we must promptly furnish records we
do have to look at some of our um uh
agency resources what we're able to do
how quickly we're able to do them uh the
nature of the requests like we talked
about how broad some of them may be and
how um complex some of them may be the
content of the records does it require
extra review redaction um and then
location of our records if any of our
records are offsite um or you know saved
uh at a historical facility we have to
look at that as well and how can we
obtain those records if they're not
digitally available requesters must
determine if the request is commercial
or non-commercial however they don't
have to disclose what they intend to do
with the records or why they are
requesting them unless it's a commercial
request so I wanted to to point that out
and and just really end this convers or
this this PowerPoint while saying while
we strive to be as efficient as possible
processing of public records requests is
a very manual process it does require a
very real human element to understand
context um content and and really do a
manual process of redaction and review
we are always trying to balance the
respons posibility to provide records as
promptly as possible but also protect
the community and redact what needs to
be redacted uh not disclose anything
that's private or confidential or you
know um anything that may jeopardize any
UHA ongoing cases so it is really a
balance that we're all trying to um be
efficient and maximize um but we're open
to any questions if you have them or if
Chris has anything he wants to
add thank you mayor oh my light's on I
know I have a question
yeah I have a question oh okay go ahead
all right thank you got that
straightened out well first of all I had
no idea that council member torus and I
had 3,100 emails and 784 attachments in
the in August of
2024 but I I I have to ask I mean that
cost
$2,000 estimated
$2,000 any attempt to go back to the
person or persons to say that's too
broad we can't give you every email
every attachment every text message is
there anything that we can say you need
specifics of what you want to save
taxpayers
$22,000 so council member Bon Giovanni
that's a great question um we do go back
I know often in the clerk's office uh
the record specialist will when there's
broad requests will go back and try to
work with that requestor to try to
narrow the request sometimes it's we get
the request she'll go to it they'll do a
data pool and they'll see oh there's
20,000 records they'll go back to the
requestor and say hey can you narrow
this what are you looking for exactly
trying to find uh terms like that and in
this type of scenario where there's not
terms being searched it's just I want
all these emails the answer is we can
and often do but if they want those
records then we provide those records
the exception is the best interest so if
they're asking for every email from the
council for the past year and comes back
it I would assume hundreds and hundreds
of thousands of Records we would push
back and say hey in the town's best
interest we cannot dedicate the number
of hours it would take to get through
that request you however long it would
take six or eight months for one request
because doing so we're not going to be
responding to any other records request
so when there are requests that are
super broad we do we do go back and we
try to get them to narrow it and
ultimately there have been times where
the requests have been so Broad and
they're not willing to narrow it that we
will push back and just say hey in the
town's best interest we're not going to
provide it in doing so we have to
articulate why we have to show and
estimate of amount of time it would take
because that's what the Court's going to
require we can't just say it's going to
take too long so we go through that
analysis every time that we're going to
push back and say this request is just
too broad we're not going to go through
100,000 documents um you know emails
which is multiple pages of documents and
so that that's how we deal with these
types of requests wouldn't wouldn't cost
be to the best interest of the town no
it would not be not under the statute
now what would be is the amount of uh
the amount of hours it would take and
and so what the courts have said is they
don't look at the cost the courts don't
care about the cost but if we estimate
that's going to take four to four
employees working full-time for six
months and in doing so it's going to
take them away from other job duties
that's what the courts will look like
it's it's more the amount of time versus
the cost okay so in this case estimated
cost was $2,000 to the
taxpayers I would hope in the future we
would if we're able to as why I'm asking
you Chris are we able to to go back and
say no you can't have every email we
need to know specifically what you're
looking for to lower that cost and lower
that time we do that a lot uh we do that
often Council M Bon gani we will go back
and try to get them to narrow and
ultimately if they if they don't want to
narrow the request they don't have to
and then it's then the analysis that
we'll have to make with the clerk's
office is is this request so broad or
are the documents that the responsive
documents this case was what 3,000 which
is relatively small compared to a lot of
what we've seen 40 hours of Staff time
to review one request is a lot but
compared to some of the other requests
we've gotten it's not that big so and
and some of the not all the requests are
the same because sometimes you'll get a
request and I may have a lot of
documents and then once the paralal gets
into it she can see there's a ton of
duplicates and come pull out those
duplicates pretty quickly and narrow
that request other times 3,000 documents
may take more than 40 hours because
they're all confidential they all have
pii where you're going to have to redact
a whole bunch and that's very time
intensive yes I want to go back to that
multiple thing there for a second but in
order to request a
Foya um they have to submit well one of
the ways you mentioned was submit an
email
what would stop someone from using
multiple emails to make frequent and
wasteful um requests nothing the people
don't have to identify who they are they
can create an email just to uh create a
request and we don't we cannot re
inquire who they are why they want it we
just get a request and that requester
could be a Gilbert resident it could be
someone that lives in a different
country the law doesn't um law doesn't
care we just have to respond but if it
wasn't wasteful why would someone use
multiple emails it's a great question
I'm not sure if they're trying to hide
their identity for some reason but I'm
not sure and this might be for
chali are there any individual or
individuals that you feel are using
multiple
emails based on the request they asking
council member Bon Giovani I have to
review the requests we we get such a
high volume of requests it's hard to
really see the full picture of what
we're seeing once we get them we route
them outside of the clerk's office so we
only see them once they come in or once
they're in our Cube but uh for
processing but as Chris spoke to it it
would be easy for somebody to utilize
multiple email addresses since we don't
require anything else other than an
email address to provide their records
requests thank you and Chris what is
the what is the litmus test for abuse of
the system in frequency and cost
um and I know I I I I I I I preface this
with I know other states have laws about
people who abuse the Foya system um what
is our litness test to say hey enough is
enough the the law doesn't provide one
the law requires that we promptly
furnish records subject to the
exceptions for confidentiality privacy
and the best interests so if someone
wants to submit a lot of requests under
maybe different names we have to respond
to those requests and Arizona law is not
set up to point to anyone that's maybe
potentially abusing the system to try to
overwhelm the town or its resources we
just have to respond
uh on to each individual request okay
okay thank
you the actually we had spoken about
some of our frequent flyers so I think a
little Clarity on that would be great is
that there are some people that are
abusing the system using multiple emails
we've discussed this you and I and
through their references back and forth
between different requests from one
email to the other we've got some people
doing massive abuse of the system
council member tusen we do have requests
that are very similar um so I think it's
easy to maybe assume that either there's
a specific topic going on or assume it's
the same person but without having that
information in front of me I I couldn't
tell you as of right now what requests
we're seeing are another person from my
team routes them but I I could see where
at one point we do have some very
similar requests where we do believe it
could possibly be the same person asking
for the same information but again
utilizing other email addresses that
would really just be an assumption that
we wouldn't be able to um to confirm I
would say if you put a name down and
then your other email has the same name
but with a number after it and then the
next one has a different number uh
you're pretty much the same person you
know and the the written requests are
written the same way Etc uh my concern
here is that Gilbert is the highest
record request
municipality in the
country we out Chicago doesn't stand in
our
shadow so how do we get this
from upwards of $3 million a year from
what you guys are telling I mean
millions of dollars and people are using
it as a weapon as
lawfare what is there anything that we
can do propose try to work with the
state to to lessen because everybody
needs their information I mean the Press
should have the information people that
feel they've been abused by you know
police or something went wrong I got it
people but when it's not
genuine where can we get to a point of
40 hours on
one 40
hours that's a that's a full-time that's
one one that's not a big
one council member Turon I completely
agree um we are very limited in what
we're able to do with the way statutes
currently written
it would require changes um at the state
level for any for us to make any
substantial changes to our process and
I'm still going to say that our state
legislators don't have the courage to
move forward that it's been the general
discussion but maybe we need to tone
down what we consider best interests I
mean at a certain point is a fishing
Expedition worth for you know
$2,000 and especially when that fishing
Expedition is going on 52 weeks a year
year I mean it's going on all the time
we know it is uh we have to find some
way or do we as a town you know sit
there and get on our knees and gravel to
the state please give us some some rep
for we're paying more than Chicago and
it's a it's it's more than just a line
item our of our costs I'd rather have
the citizens have $3 million back
anything no I understand your I
understand what you're saying council
member tson and agree with cheli that it
would pay make a legislative change to
tweak some of these statutes personally
I don't think it would take much if you
if you require quester to have a little
bit of skin in the game you have to you
know charge don't even have to charge
per hour but putting something rather
than make a PR request of $5 $10 per
request something like that even small I
think will would help in that scenario
but when it comes to the best interest
argument we can't we can't look from a
cumulative standpoint we can't say it's
in our best interest to not respond to
this request because we've gotten 14
others or there's 30 others ahead of us
we have to we have to make that that
argument and that claim on a case-by
Case basis because a Court's not going
to care that we've been inundated with
super broad requests they're only going
to care about the one case that's in
front of them and if we're saying best
interest they're going to be looking at
the specific facts of that case or that
request and nothing
else well let's say in my case we talked
about this what is the cost of just
opening up every single email of mine
every single text everything and just
having it dumped into a public record
file somebody wants it we already did it
it's got to cost less than letting these
guys monkeyy around can we is that
something we can
do it it may so we'd have to look at in
your scenario would be all your emails
you would just make public and maybe
it's available on the website would be
look at the staff time it takes and it
probably vary by the amount of emails
you get before we open it up for the
world to see we'd have to just vet it on
a regular basis to make sure there's no
attorney client privilege make sure
there's nothing confidential before we
do so but we can we could look at that
based on the average amount of emails
that you get in a given month and then
kind of weigh that versus the records
request that we're getting versus the
staff time it would take to get those
emails where they could be just placed
publicly for the world to see well I
thought you were looking at the cost of
just opening up my we are I don't have a
number yet because yeah because I let it
be said I have no problem open up every
email every phone call every text but I
want the abuse of the tax dollar to stop
because these few people are costing us
hundreds and hundreds of thousands of
dollars and it's not just me it's
everybody but if it can be done for a
reasonable number and just open
everything up I have nothing to hide and
I'm sure nobody here has anything to
hide I want to just I want to stop the
abuse and if that's what it takes i' I'd
much rather I'd much rather pay for it
and just have it in a box for everybody
to look at whenever they want then all
of a sudden find out that you're getting
inundated with something whether it's me
or whoever and cost the cost of it's
just
unbelievable so if we could really drill
down and look at maybe just opening up
everything it'd be great we'll look at
that I know that the um Freedom of
Information Act is a is something that's
important and it's good because it does
U add a certain amount of transparency
to everything the government
does but as two council members have
pointed out it's easy to abuse it now
especially when there are
no we're handcuffed by everything that
that cheli outlined on things we can't
do we're handcuffed and it might be
worth at least talking to our
legislators to see how they feel about
it I know that they're that's a Foy is
an important thing for them too um but
I'd like to to get an
understanding from with them that we do
lead the nation and and this is being
abused by um citizens that that are
having a hard could would have a hard
time proving the the benefit of what
they're
finding and uh it may be worth that
discussion
any other um go
ahead okay I I I'll be quick I just can
you clarify something I I'm not sure if
I heard it correct before and I thought
you said that you can ask them um what
they plan to do with the
information and there was another
question ahead of that as well yes uh
vice mayor Buckley uh you can only do
that if they are determining they are
going to use it for a commercial purpose
commcial yeah if it's non-commercial
which is the majority of our request we
can't ask them that if it's for a
commercial purpose that means that they
plan to sell sell the information or
have some type of monetary gain and at
that point we would be able to recoup a
portion of it if we chose to do so okay
thank you
thank you chali and
Chris have you talked to peer agencies
to determine if Gilbert is on par with
the responsiveness and processing of
these requests I know that we may have
more volume of requests but um how would
you say that we Benchmark against other
agencies in Arizona in terms of
responding because from what I'm hearing
Ing we are trying to be as responsive as
possible and we're very transparent
which is fantastic however we're also
seeing that it's a major burden um so
that's my first
question yes council member Kowski we
have reached out to partnering cities it
has not been recent so I think it's
probably a good time to reach out and
just ensure that what we're seeing
others may be seeing and how uh they are
handling similar situations um and we
also at one point reached out regarding
our fee schedule SCH to see if we were
comparable to others at and at that time
we were um but I think it's a good
opportunity to do that again and and
bring back some information okay and my
other question is what are the
consequences if we
are not able to provide them
information in terms of like let's say
that our paralal isn't
available for a month or two and so our
response gets delayed are there
consequences for the response from the
town um if it takes too long to
respond so as chevel had mentioned a
couple of times the town's required to
respond promptly um and there's no time
frame that the courts have said if so if
we're challenged and we get a lawsuit
the Court's going to look at everything
to see if this was a prompt response
including are our available resources
the amount of Records requests that
preceded this so in that scenario
Council M Kowski if if the town or
someone a requester does not feel like
the town is responding promptly um we
and we hear from that on occasion you
know we we try to give updates um but
ultimately if they feel like we're not
getting them the records in the in the
time frame that they request or that
they expect they can follow lawsuit and
that's where they'll go they'll follow
the lawsuit and try to argue in front of
the judge that the town has not been
prompt in its obligations so and the
risk there to the town is on our records
on our public records lawsuit is that we
would be liable for their attorney's
fees if the requestor files suit and
wins then we would have to pay our
attorney's fees as well as the
plaintiff's attorney's fees thank you
let's uh wrap this up as soon as we can
we've got a Lobby full of kids waiting
to come in I'll be real quick um on the
U thank you mayor on the Fe structure is
that something dictated by Statute or do
we establish that ourselves within
certain
parameters council member Lions these
are uh fees that were approved by the
Town Council some are authorized by
Statute I think body warn camera was um
a change that happened in legislation
that allowed that to be uh charged but
these uh fee schedules in general were
approved by resolution of the Town
Council so we could revisit that if we
needed to Chris is that
correct yes we could we could revisit
that uh some statutes are very clear
like the body wor warn camera one which
is a newer one at a new statute for the
last couple years it capped the amount
that you could charge that a city could
charge um but I think a lot of or maybe
the bulk and chevel can jump in of the
records request where they're asking for
emails electronic records we can't
charge at all so while you look at this
the copies those are dealing with we're
actually making physical copies
everything today is electronic and part
of the I think part of the frustration
or part of the difficulty with with the
statutes is they have not been updated
for the most part since the world turned
electronic so back in the day when
cities could charge for paper copies the
statutes haven't been updated to
recognize that everyone deals
electronically so that's why we can't
charge for the electronic side of things
because the statutes haven't been
updated Qui question thank you can I so
let me tell my my frustration is that
when you know Gilbert is a very
prosperous te and we can only afford
$110,000 to help seniors and people on
fixed income pay their water bill but
yet we can spend 400,000 500,000 on
wasteful foas that we know are just
being submitted as harassment with that
said is there any degree of privacy for
those asking for
Foya no you saying the requesters the
requester no the the request themselves
are are subject to public records so so
I can fo you a list of every email and
how many requests they have made to the
town of Gilbert in the past year and we
do get those on occasion go ahead if you
want to speak to that uh yes Council May
Brad gani we do get requests for a list
of all requests that have been made so
that is something that we're familiar
with providing okay so I will plan on
doing that thank you one quick question
you said hadn't been up said hadn't been
updated
since we do so many things electronic if
it's not been updated can this be put on
a thumb drive and left at the front desk
and we don't deliver it electronically
you have to come and pick it up is there
anything that prevents us from doing
that uh council member torguson we do
charge for thumb drives that is part of
uh a fee on the fee schedule but I think
some of these requesters they don't
identify their location either so they
might not uh live in in Gilbert or or
nearby to be able to swing by pick
something up but also the the benefit of
having a platform like just Boya is the
efficiency in getting a request out to
the requesters soon as as we're able to
do so
electronically right but I'm trying to
bring some responsibility from the
requester that has to show their face in
here to pick it
up if I jump in and please I think
council member ton what you're saying is
if the CH if the town were to change
maybe its procedures and say we're not
providing things electronically we'll
provide them electronic format but
you've got to come down and pick it up
we'll put it burn it on a disc or do it
on a thumb drive I don't know of
anything that prevents us we provide him
in electronic form but just through a
physical media versus sending out a link
on just fo you or something like that
I'm not a I don't think the law would
prevent the town changing its procedures
but chevel
please that that's correct nothing in
law would prevent that it would just be
a process change uh all of our records
are uploaded to the system redacted
within the system reviewed within the
system again that's one of the the
beauty beauty of that's one of the
benefits of the program honestly so to
do so we'd have to extract all the
records from the platform which would
create multiple records so there's just
some considerations before we would make
a decision to move in that direction
yeah and I've I've done that when I've
requested that so reject pulling that
onto a thumb drive is nothing that takes
no effort at all so that a procedure May
eliminate Millions of dollars a waste a
simple procedure
change let's wrap this up um are you U
okay on direction we're going
here uh the direction I received and CH
Chris can jump in is just to do more
research we'll look into opportunities
as council member torgenson said we'll
look at partnering cities to see what
they're they're seeing what they're
dealing with some of their records some
fees um go ahead counc I'd like to see
some possible um Law changes on the
state level just maybe some language
just some of your thoughts on that too
Chris we'll work with our intergo team
as well on that yeah right open a
dialogue with the state legislature
absolutely that works all the time that
works all the time well thank you we
appreciate the feedback thank
you okay we'll adjourn this study
session and heard the uh the cats the
cats into the chambers and and we'll
start in a couple minutes